In this episode, Beth Cougler Blom talks with Wouter Smeets about shifting the focus from productivity to aliveness at work. Wouter, founder of Life-Centric Work Lab, shares how important it is to challenge accepted norms about work and how our work, if we do facilitation or another role, can support well-being, happiness, and personal growth.
Beth and Wouter also discuss:
- self-awareness and understanding individual needs
- creating supportive work and group environments
- integrated aliveness into facilitation and client work
Engage with Wouter Smeets
- Website: https://lifecentricworklab.com/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wouter-smeets/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/life-centric-work-lab
Other Links from the Episode
Connect with the Facilitating on Purpose Podcast
- Follow Facilitating on Purpose on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn or YouTube
- facilitatingonpurpose.com
Connect with Beth Cougler Blom
- Give feedback or suggest upcoming show topics or guests at hello@bcblearning.com
- Visit bcblearning.com to explore Beth’s company’s services in facilitation and learning design
- Purchase a copy of Beth’s book, Design to Engage
- Follow Beth on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn
Podcast production services by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
Show Transcript
[Upbeat music playing]
[Show intro]
Beth 00:02
Welcome to Facilitating on Purpose, where we explore ideas together about designing and facilitating learning. Join me to get inspired on your journey to becoming and being a great facilitator wherever you work.
Beth 00:17
I’m your host Beth Cougler Blom.
[Episode intro]
Beth 00:21
Hello there. Great to have you listening to this episode of the podcast. Before I go ahead and introduce my guest, I just wanted to do a quick little announcement and that is, Facilitating on Purpose is two years old.
Beth 00:37
We started the podcast in 2022 and it’s now September 2024 when I’m recording this episode. And I just wanted to do a little, I guess, self congratulations [laughs] but mostly congratulations to you and thanks to you for sticking with us this whole past two years. Thank you so much for all the kind words you say about the podcast and the feedback that you’ve given me along the way.
Beth 01:07
I can’t go on without acknowledging Mary Chan, my amazing audio editor that I have on the podcast. One of my friends was asking me the other day if I could ever do the podcast without Mary and I said, no, I never could. [laughs]
Beth 01:22
So Mary Chan from Organized Sound Productions, thank you so much for all you do for this podcast and all you’ve done for the last two years. It’s been a wonderful ride working with you and I look forward to continuing.
Beth 01:36
And thanks to all of you who have listened to any of the 43 episodes before this one. And I appreciate all of you all the time for listening and for giving me feedback as well. Love it. Okay, let’s get to the topic of this episode, Wouter Smeets.
Beth 01:53
He’s the founder of Life-Centric Work Lab. It’s a think and do tank that redesigns work to enrich life. Innovation has been the common thread in Wouter’s career and he now passionately applies that to contribute to social and ecological well-being.
Beth 02:11
He loves to explore ideas and bring them to life. And that’s exactly what we’re doing in this episode. We are exploring the idea of working for aliveness instead of productivity. We explain more in the episode.
Beth 02:25
Really happy to present my conversation with Wouter to you. Enjoy the show. Wouter, so nice to see you. Thanks for joining me today. I’m glad to have you with me on the podcast.
Wouter 02:38
Yeah, really happy to be here, Beth. Really happy to be here.
Beth 02:41
I guess I want to share with the listeners what prompted me to reach out to you to have this conversation today. We had met at the Never Done Before Festival, so I really appreciated meeting you there.
Beth 02:53
We made this connection online, and I started to receive your newsletter from your business. I want to ask you about your business in a second, but the question that came across in that one newsletter was, what if we work for aliveness instead of productivity?
Beth 03:10
And I thought, oh, it just grabbed me, it grabbed my attention, and I thought, that’s such a great question, and it spurred me on to reach out to you and have this conversation today. So thanks for putting these thought-provoking questions out in the world, first of all, nice to have you with me.
Wouter 03:27
Yeah, yeah, very welcome. And again, happy to be here and love to talk about the topic. So let’s go.
Beth 03:33
So before we talk about aliveness, because there’s so much richness within there, tell us what your business name is and why you started that business.
Wouter 03:41
Yeah, so the business is called Life-Centric Work Lab. And it’s a business where we bring together professionals all around the world, who challenge accepted norms about work, and rethink its role in life.
Wouter 03:54
So how I get there is that I’ve taken many many stepping stones to get where I am now, taking on many professional roles in different types of organizations, from startups to big corporates. Figured out that are just so many convictions, beliefs about work, for me, or it’s the right time to challenge them.
Wouter 04:14
And that work can be so much more than it actually is at the moment. So what if work can work in service of life, rather than that work depletes our batteries, or that it goes at the cost of our well-being.
Wouter 04:29
There are just so many beliefs from working from nine to five, burnouts. And I think work has the beauty that it can be something beautiful that it can lead to an enriching life and contribute to it.
Wouter 04:42
So we bring together all these professionals who feel the same way, and see if we can redesign work to now support our world and it’s living an evidence
Beth 04:52
Oh, that sounds so nice. It makes me think about sometimes how much we see the opposite. As you’ve said, you’ve mentioned burnout, or maybe it brings to mind for me, people who don’t like their job. I remember I was talking to a friend’s daughter who was about to go into university a couple of years ago.
Beth 05:07
And she said, you know, most of my friends’ parents don’t like their job. And I was astounded and I said, you know, I love my job and just I wanted her to know that there are lots of us out here that do love our work.
Beth 05:22
And we’re situated in that, but I think actually burnout can still come when we love our work too. So there’s pitfalls maybe in both situations. Would you agree?
Wouter 05:33
Yeah, I definitely agree. So having a career that you love doesn’t mean that you cannot get into a burnout, for example. And you can also get into a burnout, of course, with a role that you don’t love at all.
Wouter 05:45
So I see, for example, a lot of mission driven organizations that people really care about the mission that they’re supporting, but the work is never done. And they often live in work environments where they are challenged to keep working.
Wouter 06:02
And oftentimes it’s also the self belief that if I’m not doing the work, who will? And it’s so important. So there’s also this risk of consistently doing too much. And going to the first part of, yes, it is possible to create work that aligns to and contributes to your personal vision of a good life, but also acknowledging that work is not a one size fits all.
Wouter 06:29
People are not a one size fits all. We all are different. We have different preferences, different talents, different things we can bring to our world. And it can be difficult to find a role that really aligns to who you are, that has the shape of you, so to speak.
Wouter 06:44
And it may change throughout your life. Because looking at the person that I was 10 years ago, it’s different than who I am now. And probably in 10 years from now, I again will have different interests and different things I want to work on.
Wouter 06:56
So it’s this never ending journey of nurturing, you know, how can I shape work to contribute to what I find important in life? That being said, of course, we all have different possibilities, opportunities to shape our work.
Wouter 07:12
And we not all have the same privilege to do so. Because for some people in the world, work really is something to have a roof over your head, and to support your family. And we don’t have all the options to shape the work exactly the way that our ideal situation would be.
Wouter 07:28
But I do think that there are also a lot of people out there who might be able to make more conscious decisions on what does a fulfilling role mean to me? And what do I need to do to take those steps and believe that work not only doesn’t necessarily have to drain your energy, but it can actually give your energy. Which doesn’t mean that work should never be hard, or that, you know, work always is easygoing,
Wouter 07:55
because that’s not what life-centric work means. It means really, that work can be next to all the other important things in life, like family, friends, fun, health. That work can be something that also has a positive impact on your life and the people close to you.
Beth 08:14
There’s so much there that I want to jump off from for sure. [Wouter laughs.] And, and think about just who we’re speaking to in this episode, which is probably people who both work for organizations and work for themselves in our work in, in facilitation.
Beth 08:27
You know, we might be inside a company or leading our own company, but I think what you do, it applies to all of us, doesn’t it? There’s something that we can do, many things probably that we all can do, to be able to be alive in our work, no matter who we work for, if it’s ourselves or someone else?
Wouter 08:44
Yeah, it’s so interesting. So when we look at the people that we bring together in our lab, there are so many different types of professionals coming from different countries in a world, different types of organizations.
Wouter 08:54
So next to having different people in our lab, work for different organizations, we all learn from each other and exchange insights. And every time, it’s so fascinating to notice how different people can be, but also how much assumptions we can make about this is what I need, this is what I want.
Wouter 09:13
So I assume that another person would need this too. And if you look at, in our lab, we, for example, also have these sessions around how to keep your energy high throughout the day, how to stay energized, how to stay healthy.
Wouter 09:28
And we share all these tips and practices on how you can do that. And you see that different things work for different people. And that some people, for example, they like to do their focused work in the morning, other people, there are more night owls and would like to do that in the evening.
Wouter 09:45
Extroverted people thrive on having these high energy interactions throughout the day. And then you have more introverted people who really need to pick and select the times they interact with people, but also really mindful of, I need to have alone time, focused time.
Wouter 10:00
And so the number one thing, or actually the two things that are really important to get to this point is knowing about yourself. So having the self-awareness, who am I and what works for me? And to run small experiments to figure out because we also have assumptions about ourselves.
Wouter 10:19
And then next with the people you work with, it’s very simple, but to share with them what works for you. And only by sharing that with each other, I mean, fortunately, or at least not yet, people cannot look in your mind.
Wouter 10:32
And hopefully it stays for a long, long time. But the best way to share what you need is by explicitly sharing it with the people you work with. So you can help each other in creating those work conditions where you can help each other stay healthy, stay sane, have fun, and of course deliver great work.
Beth 10:50
It seems like there’s a bit of personal accountability in there as well. I mean, sometimes we know the things that we need to do to keep ourselves healthy, but we’re not doing it for whatever reason.
Beth 10:59
So there is a piece around us doing that for ourselves and trying to find the strategies to do it for ourselves. But does it help us when we share it with our colleagues, with our friends, with our partners, that they, it’s almost giving us this extra bit of accountability as well to actually do it? [laughs]
Wouter 11:17
Yeah, short answer, 100%. Yes, it helps. [They laugh. [Beth: Yeah.] And then of course, some people are more intrinsically motivated. Other people need deadlines, they need, you know, sharing commitments with others to get going.
Wouter 11:31
And that’s not a right or wrong kind of thing. It’s about knowing yourself. What helps me in order to take the steps that will serve me and my well-being? What we see happen in our community, but also the organizations where we have these conversations is, first of all, it works really well to exchange insights on, hey, what works for you to keep your energy high throughout the day? What works for me?
Wouter 11:56
And a lot of times you notice these new ideas. It’s like, you know, giving a present. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to apply those principles the same way as a one size fits all like the other person.
Wouter 12:08
But you can have a look at the person, hey, is this something for me? And if it applies, then you can start applying it too. And if not, then it’s not for you. And that’s also fine. So and the next part about sharing what you would like to achieve, what you would like to do, it brings an additional layer of commitment to the table, where, you know, everybody’s on his or her personal journey.
Wouter 12:31
But it doesn’t mean that you have to do it alone. And so we offer personal journeys. But if we create a support system, the chances that we actually succeed in what we want to achieve become way, way higher.
Wouter 12:43
And that goes for entrepreneurs, goes for employees, goes for professional athletes. There’s often this notion, you know, the self made hero who against all odds was able to achieve what he or she wanted to achieve.
Wouter 12:56
But if you look closer, there’s always been the support system of people who help this person get there where they want to be. And the same holds for creating your work experience that energizes you.
Wouter 13:09
There is, of course, a level of accountability for yourself, because in the end, you need to do the work. But having somebody who supports you when things get tough, or give you ideas, or, you know, keep you on track, is super, super important and helpful.
Wouter 13:25
And when you do this right in organization, it also creates better relationships, you understand each other better, you see each other as human to human. And there’s just so much benefits from doing that, that it’s, yeah, would almost be silly not to do it. [chuckles]
Beth 13:42
It sounds like it, right? It sounds very hopeful, right? And positive. It’s also making me think about, you know, there’s work in general that just happens while you’re walking around the office or you’re meeting on Zoom with your colleagues or whatever it is.
Beth 13:55
But for those of us who are facilitators, we’re also creating something for a group. And I want to ask you about that. So how can we bring…so we can do some of these things for ourselves to create the work the way we want to live it, our life and our work.
Beth 14:12
But what about when we’re working with groups? Like how do we create that inside a workshop or inside a meeting and be that support for our groups? Do you ever think about that?
Wouter 14:24
Yeah, yes, good question. So what we often do is work from the principle, first, you want to have people to think about it individually. So to be unbiased by the opinions of others and make sure that everyone in the room has an opportunity to, in the end, to share his or her perspective, and not to have the loudest person in the room, or the fastest person in the room sharing their perspective.
Wouter 14:48
So we often start with, you know, from a blank slate, from a white page. First, think about what are your thoughts that come up? How do you think about this without, you know, having conversations with anybody else.
Wouter 15:03
Then we often go to pairs. So having one on one conversations. And after having those one on one conversations, we might, you might, you know, go to two and twos, or depending on the group size, share some items publicly, a plenary in the group, also acknowledging what’s important.
Wouter 15:22
I think that’s something I want to add for the previous answer I gave. Of course, you also have an organizational context, you have the work that you need to do. And for some work, which is really operational, you need to need to be there at your office from nine to five, for example, if you need to pick up the phone, and you need to do that kind of work.
Wouter 15:40
For some creative knowledge work, you have more autonomy and flexibility over how you spend your day. So depending on the work that you need to do, the type of organization you work for, you have different constraints. Different constraints within which you can design your ideal work experience, or the way that energizes you.
Wouter 15:57
But within those constraints, there’s often is more possible than you know. And by first thinking about it individually, then having conversations around it, and then sharing that with each other, it opens up a lot of ideas and perspectives on what’s possible.
Wouter 16:13
And yeah, what is not possible. Yeah, so so always give that space to have people consider it individually first.
Beth 16:23
Let’s go back to the concept of aliveness versus productivity. You’ve explained it a little bit, I think, but just say it again. What does aliveness mean to you? Because it’s a word we probably don’t see as much.
Beth 16:35
And then what do you think about productivity and are there pitfalls in there for you? Where sometimes we think, oh, this is a positive thing, we’re being productive. But the way you want us to think about it, there’s, there’s some caution to that.
Beth 16:49
Can you tell me more?
Wouter 16:50
Yeah, so it’s such a big topic, aliveness versus productivity is so much to tap into. But what I would say is that if we look at work and how we operate at work, there’s so much focus on productivity and efficiency.
Wouter 17:05
And it almost seems as if we’re celebrating robot-like behaviour and that we want to be as efficient and applaud more and more output. But at the expense sometimes of well-being, of feeling healthy, feeling happy.
Wouter 17:21
And then in our lab, we consider the question, but what in the end is the purpose of work? Why do we work? Do we work to be productive regardless of what we’re producing and at the cost of what we’re producing?
Wouter 17:35
Or what if we work for aliveness? So that doing the work makes you feel alive, makes you feel proud, makes you feel inspired. And also that the work that you do brings inspiration to others. Makes the lives of others better so that they feel inspired, they feel seen, they feel like human beings.
Wouter 17:56
And looking at those two themes of aliveness versus productivity, it’s not that they’re mutually exclusive, so that it’s either one or the other. Because when I like to write a book and I would be really happy about it, then I need to be productive to get there.
Wouter 18:16
And I can be really proud if I bring ideas to life that I care about. So that means that being productive can also help me feel alive. But if at some point productivity is only the end and not a means to an end then it can lead to doing all these tasks which are not really important and they’re not contributing something. They’re actually depleting my batteries, and then I can feel less and less alive.
Wouter 18:45
And is that actually what we want to achieve? Is that the point of work? So we’d like to reframe productivity more as a means to an end. And what if the end would be aliveness? That’s actually the discussion that we were having in our lab.
Beth 18:58
Oh, I love that. And there’s so many big questions that you can ask yourself, you know, why am I doing this? How am I doing this? Do I like the way I’m doing this? Do I feel alive while I’m doing this?
Beth 19:09
They seem like big, big questions, but we can achieve this. And I think we can ask ourselves this as we’re preparing to work with groups as well. Like, how do I want my participants to feel while they’re going through this experience?
Beth 19:23
And do they know why we’re doing it? Are they feeling alive while we’re doing it? I don’t know. I keep thinking about inside and outside a workshop or a meeting experience around aliveness.
Wouter 19:35
Yeah, so what I also appreciate about the concept of being alive, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it should be easy or that we should give up easily or that it can also go. So I have a professional background, athlete background.
Wouter 19:48
Sometimes you need to train really hard or for many years practice to get there, get to where you want to be. So being alive can also mean that something can sometimes be really hard. I mean, life is not always always easy.
Wouter 20:05
It doesn’t need to be hard all the time as well. But being alive can also mean that you’re enduring, that you’re building resilience and that sometimes you hit a roadblock. And in a group, you know, there’s conflicts and conflict isn’t necessarily bad.
Wouter 20:21
Sometimes you need to have conflict and to move further, to get to a more long term solution, to bring closer together. Rather than you have, you know, you escape the conflict and you have all these emotions lingering which don’t serve the group.
Wouter 20:38
And of course, again, it’s not a purpose to have conflict all the time but it can be a means to an end. So alive doesn’t always mean that you should feel happy all the time or that you should feel fulfilled all the time.
Wouter 20:54
But actually, like life itself, it feels that you’re present, you’re really in the moment feeling. And that can be a whole range of emotions from darker to lighter. But the point to not marginalize ourselves to robots who need to be productive, but to workplaces that support the range and richness of what it means to be human.
Beth 21:16
Oh, that’s a nice way to phrase it. It makes me think about your bio because you said you live in the Hague, it’s near the beach, and you like to get out to the beach and be near the ocean. But I mean, we could make a mistake that being alive is just, oh, have a job where I can get to the beach more often.
Beth 21:31
It’s so much more about that. And there’s so many more personal things. It sounds like we can do just recognizing that we need to be without people for a while to kind of recharge. I mean, it’s a very personal thing that we can all try to recognize for ourselves.
Beth 21:48
Like there’s self-awareness pieces. It’s not, you know, how they say about self-care, oh, it’s not just taking a bath with bubble bath, right? Aliveness isn’t just making time to get to the beach, although that might be part of it, but there’s a whole wide range of possibilities within what aliveness looks like.
Beth 22:03
And I appreciate what you’re saying about, it doesn’t mean it can’t be hard because sometimes hard work is really fun too, right? When you’re working towards a goal, like you said. What was your sport and do you still play it?
Wouter 22:15
I don’t play anymore. It was professional swimming. I run on the athletics track now and play padel and do some surfing sometimes in the ocean. So it’s still very active. I just love to move and to play.
Wouter 22:27
Returning also to productivity versus aliveness, that there are also many beliefs around productivity that don’t serve us anymore. So for example, back in the days, and I’m talking decades ago, perhaps even 100 years ago, the productivity also had a relationship to how much time we spent on the work.
Wouter 22:50
Now that more and more of our work is creative knowledge work, sometimes the irony is that doing less work or spending less time working actually leads to better output. So for example, if I’m well rested, I make better decisions, I’m more creative, I can better decide what’s essential work and what’s trivial work.
Wouter 23:10
But still knowing this rationally, when I came out of a corporate career and I had my nine to five, I spent so many years feeling guilty when I quit working after, you know, in the afternoon, I felt I have three more hours left until it’s five o ‘clock.
Wouter 23:28
So I should be working. Whereas I really felt that taking a walk, go cycling, go to the beach really cleared my mind. And actually, I could stare at my screen for three more hours, but nothing would have happened.
Wouter 23:43
And spending that time walking, going to the beach, it cleared my mind, became more creative. And I was energized to do the things I need to do the next day, only 15 minutes of the time. So it’s also, you know, going away from the beliefs we have and challenging those beliefs.
Wouter 24:01
But sometimes we don’t even or aren’t even aware that the beliefs are there because they’re blind spots. So what we do in our labs is also shining light on those blind spots. And what if working six hours a day leads to better results than eight hours?
Wouter 24:15
And what if, you know, regular walks during the day – that’s what I do, by the way – so regular walks, focused blocks lead to more productivity and feeling more alive? So it doesn’t have to be the scarcity perspective that you should choose one or the other.
Wouter 24:29
That’s a win-lose scenario. But you can actually have more productivity and more aliveness at the same time. Or at least that’s the way it can happen. It doesn’t always have to happen, of course, but it can happen.
Beth 24:40
Yeah, I agree. And it’s something I personally, I think, have to keep reminding myself over and over again, that I can take time to take a walk during the quote unquote, business hours of nine to five, I can, you know, make time to integrate yoga into or I can go and, I don’t know, take the dishes out of the dishwasher.
Beth 25:01
And, you know, you’re thinking about the project at the time, or, you know, like, it’s really hard to break out of that. I should be working between nine to five and if I’m not, there’s something wrong, right?
Beth 25:12
It’s, I think I personally have to fight that all the time because of probably the culture I grew up in and so many other reasons. And so it’s ongoing work, isn’t it? To keep telling ourselves what alive looks like can be different things.
Beth 25:26
Yeah. And it’s important.
Wouter 25:28
Even this for me that way, I still sometimes feel more hours means more productivity, where that often isn’t the case. I work with bursts of energy, and sometimes I just notice my battery is empty and then I need to go to the beach, go for a walk, and I can do the work that I wanted to do in a fraction of the time because I’m re-energized again and taking care of myself.
Wouter 25:54
Of course, you have your commitments and obligations to others, so that’s where communication is really important. But I also really try to reframe walking, taking breaks, perhaps cycling, exercising, moving around a lot as part of the work.
Wouter 26:12
It’s not something I feel that you should do in your own time, but something that’s an integral part to delivering great work. And if you start to frame it that way, then it’s also easy for yourself to allow yourself to go on that walk.
Wouter 26:27
Yeah, so what I also started doing, for example, is in this after COVID era, it’s so normal for us to by default, hey, let’s have a video call. And then we’re sitting behind our desk again. And what I started doing the last two years is to, whenever it’s possible, of course, to, hey, why don’t we go for a walk and talk?
Wouter 26:48
Just have a traditional old-fashioned phone call. [Beth: Yeah!] And for me, going for a walk, talking to the other person over the phone. For me, it’s a two birds, one scone opportunity of having a walk, but also my ideas move more freely when I’m walking and having better conversations than when I’m sitting still the whole day behind my laptop.
Wouter 27:19
So yeah, really seeing movement as an integral part to delivering great work and that leadership also supports and encourages people to move throughout the day would be a great benefit.
Beth 27:31
That’s where my brain was going, too, because, you know, we either have clients or we have bosses of some kind. And what if they don’t share the same philosophy? So I mean, I have clients that, or potential clients, that would reach out and say, can you facilitate something two weeks from now?
Beth 27:47
And those of us in the field go, [makes a ha ha sound] as if we can do that like it. But there’s this pressure that comes from other people in and around our work to force us out of kind of sometimes the good routines that we put in place for ourselves.
Beth 28:02
Like sometimes it’s hard to say no to this. I guess it’s kind of a type of productivity, right? It’s like, no, we need the meeting to happen in two weeks and we really need you to do it. And it’s like, how do we work with other people like this in our work to, I don’t know, stand our ground for the type of aliveness at work we’re trying to achieve?
Beth 28:24
And maybe we can help them achieve it, too?
Wouter 28:27
Yeah, so it can be, of course, challenging depending on the work culture that you’re in and what’s being found normal in a certain…the bubble that you’re in, actually. So what’s the culture that’s there?
Wouter 28:39
It also goes back to the start of our conversation. So really knowing about yourself, what works for me and being able to share that with the people that you work with on a regular basis. You can also put that at the bottom of your email or you have this Manual of Me, for example, which is this template where you fill in how you thrive during your work days, how you like your meetings, how you behave under stress,
Wouter 29:05
how people can support you. So that we know better from each other what works for you, what works for me, how can we support each other? That doesn’t mean that all your needs get fulfilled all the time because we can have different needs.
Wouter 29:19
And so it can happen that if I don’t appreciate meetings in the morning, because I do my focused work, but every once in a while I will make an exception because it’s needed. But the default for me would be to, you know, that I feel supported in that need.
Wouter 29:35
And it doesn’t mean that that need is always fulfilled. But also, you know, it can sound easy to share what your needs are, but it also depends on do you have an organizational culture that feels safe?
Wouter 29:49
Or perhaps even is there a brave culture? So where you not only feel that you’re able to share that with each other, but you also get the freedom, the autonomy from leadership to experiment with what works.
Wouter 30:00
So rather than that leadership says this is the way you need to work, then it comes from a certain place of distrust. So we think you should work this way, but it actually comes from a place of trust saying, people, we hired you because we believe you can do an awesome job and you’re grownups.
Wouter 30:15
So, you know, you together with your teams, you figure out what you need to do the work you need to do. If you need any support, we’re here for you. We can support your needs. So to bring that level of autonomy and empowerment to teams, because also when you look in organizations, the type of work or the organizational context that you need to work in is also different from team to team.
Wouter 30:38
And there’s not a one size fits all there. So it’s about I think I tapped on a lot of items. So one of them is, of course, your own ownership of knowing what you need and then being able to address that with colleagues.
Wouter 30:49
But also leadership who either provides a fertile environment for this to happen or that it doesn’t happen because people don’t feel free or safe or brave to operate on what they need.
Beth 31:03
And I think on the client side, I have a friend who, when they go out to do multi-day workshops, they’ll say, I’m going to facilitate the first day, the next day I’m going to be off because I need to recharge.
Beth 31:15
Then I’ll facilitate the third day and then I’ll be off and then I’ll facilitate the fifth day. So they build in those recharge days after each of the facilitation days, which I actually don’t ever hear anyone else talking about. But it’s, it’s like we need to bring this strength to potential client conversations saying, this is what I do.
Beth 31:36
And basically if they don’t go for it, we don’t work with them. I mean, there’s a bit of strength that we have to have in the way we want to work sometimes. Like will we take the work? Will we be a little bit flexible around it?
Beth 31:47
Like you said with your kind of workplace based example, like, uh, well, maybe I’ll just get one recharge day in the week and not two or whatever. But we just have to make decisions around what we will and won’t accept,
Beth 31:59
I guess on the client side.
Wouter 32:02
Yeah and I think there’s of course sometimes it’s people in a position to say no to a project but sometimes people really need that project so there’s also or have the perception they need that project and so there’s different levels to what you are willing to accept in terms of going beyond what you need.
Wouter 32:22
But I think it’s a really great example that you gave. So if you know from yourself what you need to recharge, to implicitly already build this in your offer so that you’re able to facilitate those sessions in a way that you stay energized not only on the short term but also in the long term with the multiple projects that you have.
Wouter 32:42
And if that leads to discussions to be really clear in why it is that you inserted these days off and what it brings to also the group of participants. So being able to bring your best self and being able to bring the best facilitation of group dynamics and the results you’re trying to achieve but also staying healthy.
Wouter 33:03
And in my experience for the clients you want to work with if they’re aligned to those vision and those values they actually appreciate when you share that these are the reasons behind that offer and behind those days off. And that’s about clearly communicating why it’s there in the first place. And it might even inspire clients to also look at from this perspective but because they’re humans too and they also need these breaks and to be able to recharge.
Beth 33:33
Yeah, give them kind of an excuse, I suppose, too, because they might have to go back to somebody on their end and say, Oh, this facilitator is asking for this. I guess we should let them do it, [laughs] but it’s actually good for everyone.
Beth 33:44
So you’re helping me realize that we not only have to explain why it’s important for us as the facilitator, but there’s the piece about why it can be important for the group or the organization that we just have to remember to include.
Beth 33:57
So it doesn’t feel so, I mean, the word selfish comes to mind. I know it’s not selfish when we think about it for ourselves because it’s important, but it’s not just about serving us, is it, this kind of conversation.
Beth 34:09
It’s about why that those kind of breaks or whatever the situation is, it’s good for the group as well.
Wouter 34:16
Yeah, I think in general, indeed, it’s interesting how we often things with these choice or decisions, think about term selfish, and I think about the term self care. Bringing in these perspectives that actually taking care of yourself, you know, regular movement, regular breaks, perhaps not a workshop of eight hours, but four hours during the day, for example, where you spend less time with the group,
Wouter 34:40
that it’s not about the amount of hours you spend with the group, but the value you deliver. And that it makes more sense, can make more sense in situations, to do a shorter session rather than a longer session. Because we are human beings and the way our brains work and how we need to move and how we can be created for a certain amount of hours.,
Wouter 34:59
it just makes sense to work that way. So it’s not about I’m being selfish. It’s also about bringing these perspectives and research on if you have regular walks, if you’re well rested, we can bring so much more to the table than if we just, you know, are drained because we spent eight hours, but we did spend those eight hours.
Wouter 35:17
But we, you know, we were so, so, so tired. And in the end, we were not able to make the decisions or see the forest from the trees.
Beth 35:26
Again, it’s a time bound thing, isn’t it? Because just like we think we have to work nine to five or whatever we think our hours need to be because of past conditioning. I mean, why do workshops always have to be 8:30 to 4:30 or, you know, like an hour for lunch and 15 minute breaks.
Beth 35:42
We get very conditioned to these kinds of norms here in my country, anyway. I don’t know if you have the same in Europe. But why, like you’re really encouraging me to think about why is a day long workshop always that length?
Beth 35:55
There’s sort of a question we need to ask ourselves about, well, what are we trying to do and like, let’s just, it takes the time it takes, I guess. It’s very hard to break out of that time boundedness around our work.
Wouter 36:06
Yeah, definitely. If you work with clients who have a condition like that, or this is just the way they’ve operated for many, many years, it’s of course also difficult to bring in a different perspective.
Wouter 36:17
If you notice that it’s difficult, and there’s no space to bring in the way you would like to work, then depending, of course, on your facilitated situation, you might say, okay, we might not be a good fit or you pass on the project. But in some cases, if you’re able to give a different perspective and look at it from a means to an end perspective, say, with what we’re trying to achieve, we don’t need to spend those eight hours, but what if we spend those two hours and get to the results in this way?
Wouter 36:51
And you don’t need to bring all these people together for such an amount of time, and the energy is high, people are happy because they’re high energy engagement. Everybody has clarity, there’s creativity, and you leave the room with a few steps further down the road, with some new decisions, and everybody’s happy. Rather than what can also happen if you spend eight hours in a room, and at the end,
Wouter 37:17
everybody’s tired and grumpy, and everybody has brain fog because we had so many discussions. And where do we need to go next? I think it also circles back to the belief of, we need to spend those eight hours in order to get value from this project.
Wouter 37:32
And sometimes the irony, it’s the other way around.
Beth 37:36
Yeah. So it’s that means to the ends, like what are the ends we’re trying to achieve and then decide what the means are, how to get there and how long it takes and whatever. Wouter, as we think about you doing this work in the world and all of us doing this work in the world by trying to integrate some of these strategies you’ve talked about today, can you just share a little bit,
Beth 37:57
you’ve probably already said it, but just to reiterate, what’s the impact to us as humans – you’ve mentioned us as humans working together and being together – what’s the impact to us when we find ways to do this, to work for aiveness instead of productivity?
Wouter 38:15
What I see happen for the people in our lab but also for myself is that when you have this different perspective it can feel so fulfilling to do mostly to be present. So not to be too tired all the time, feeling that you need to rush from one thing to another thing to another thing. And you’re just not there with your mind.
Wouter 38:35
It’s just that there’s so much going on during those eight hours a day, those seven days a week, and you always feel that you’re behind. And that there’s this next thing to go to. And as a result you’re or at least I wasn’t always able to be present with loved ones or also during the work itself because I was either thinking about the past, thinking about the future, thinking about a different place I needed to be.
Wouter 38:59
I was everywhere else except for the here and now. And I think aliveness means, to me at least, if you apply these principles that you can be present. Be present with what is be present with what’s important now. And that also means that that’s in the work and that touch upon the topic what we call in our lab essentialism.
Wouter 39:19
So really only doing the things that really move the needle and matter and eliminating everything else. So being ruthlessly prioritized what’s important. So being present with the work that you do and skip all the trivial work. And then you feel more alive because the work that you do that matters and it inspires you.
Wouter 39:39
But it also means that if you do that well that you have more time to spend with loved ones and with the things that matter to you to outside of work. Because you know work is important of course but in the end work should support life.
Wouter 39:56
So when you’re able to do that work from that basis and you go home and you’re with your loved ones or you’re doing your sports or you do other fun stuff that you’ll be able to be present with that as well and feel alive as a result.
Wouter 40:10
So if you do that well and also support each other in helping others feel alive to me that makes a whole lot more sense than just try to be productive and and not being present while doing so.
Beth 40:23
Wouter, thank you so much for sharing these insights. And I just love these kind of conversations because it obviously helps me as well just keep staying grounded and trying to stay alive in my own work.
Beth 40:36
And so selfishly, I love that I get to create these podcast episodes and invite people like you along. So thank you for having this conversation and sharing these things with us today.
Wouter 40:46
Yeah, I feel very welcome and had a blast having a conversation about this topic too, of course, feeling alive, feeling alive as well. [chuckles]
[Episode outro]
Beth 41:07
It was very great to have this conversation with Wouter and what made it even more impactful is that around the same time that I was working on this episode, re-listening back to the conversation I had with Wouter and thinking about aliveness and productivity, I was also re-listening back to the episode that I did with Neelu Kaur about a year ago because I was reaching out to Neelu saying, hey,
Beth 41:31
it’s been a year since your episode released, as I do with all my guests now. Neelu’s episode was about maintaining well-being. So to actually go and listen back to both of these episodes at the same time was wonderful because it makes me just continue to stay the course in working for aliveness and well-being in my own life and work.
Beth 41:54
And both Neelu and Wouter have really great points around how to do that. There’s a few points circling for me that Wouter said that I want to reiterate here with you and it’s again for my own reflection and deepening of my knowledge as well.
Beth 42:10
It occurs to me that time really plays into this. You heard us talk about how time in both North American and European culture really has led us somehow to believe that in between the hours of nine to five, we really need to sit our butt in our seats and do work at a computer, for example.
Beth 42:31
Those of us that have computer based jobs these days. And just working to try to integrate other types of things that serve us better within the quote unquote workday is something I think I need to still keep working on.
Beth 42:46
It sounds like Wouter still is challenged in that way himself. Understandably, because culture runs deep and these things take time to change. So I know I’ll keep putting that on my list and in my mind to give myself permission to do things that help me stay alive and support me in my life and work during the workday. Like going for a walk, doing yoga, getting out to the beach like Wouter does and so on.
Beth 43:14
So even pause this episode right now and take a moment or two to think for yourself. What is it that you need to give yourself permission around to make sure that you are working for aliveness instead of productivity?
Beth 43:27
Remember, too, that Wouter said those two things are not mutually exclusive. We can feel really alive while getting a whole bunch of stuff done, being very productive. So it’s not that we’re actually never going to be productive again, isn’t it?
Beth 43:41
And of course, the piece around it being hard, you know, hard work is really rewarding as well. It can be difficult. You can work through conflict and have it be a positive experience. So those two terms are not mutually exclusive.
Beth 43:55
It’s not an either or situation. We want to be productive, but absolutely we need to be alive in order to support our work and to support our families, our friends, everybody in our life. And we need to ask for their support to us as well, to help us do that, to work towards aliveness in our own life.
Beth 44:16
So keep asking yourself, what do you need to do to be fulfilled? And how are you spending your time to do that? I really want to think about Wouter Smeets again for being with me in this conversation. And I know it’s one, I’ll say it again, that I do need to keep listening to from time to time to remember the good things he said and to actually make the change in my life.
Beth 44:42
Maybe you feel that way as well. Before I move on to telling you about the next episode, I just wanted to highlight one little word that Wouter said in the episode, which I actually didn’t understand at the time that he said it.
Beth 44:55
Do you remember when he was saying about how he was in sports and he was an athlete and he does a sport called padel? Well, I didn’t know what that word meant. I’m in Canada, in British Columbia. I’ve never heard of padel.
Beth 45:09
I don’t even know if I’m saying it right. [laughs] But actually, after we stopped recording, I asked him about it and he told me about it and I found out it’s a racquet sport. And it’s popular in Spain, it’s popular in Latin America.
Beth 45:22
Apparently, it’s a combination of tennis, squash and badminton. So I’m going to put a definition of that sport in the show notes if you want to go check it out. You’re probably laughing at me right now because you’re really familiar with what this sport is, but it was something new that I learned in the episode and I wanted to reflect that back to you as well.
Beth 45:40
Thanks again, Wouter, for teaching me so many things about aliveness and about a new sport as well. On the next episode of the podcast I talk with Khari Wendell McClelland. Khari is a diversely talented and ever evolving artist.
Beth 45:54
He’s a songwriter, he’s a musician, he’s received critical acclaim recently for his Freedom Singer project, where he recreates the music fugitive slaves carried on their journey north into Canada. Along with being a musician, Khari is also a facilitator and he teaches facilitation.
Beth 46:12
Our conversation together is going to be about what great facilitation feels like. That’s next time on the show. Until then.
[Show outro]
Beth 46:21
Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose. If you were inspired by something in this episode, please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them expand their facilitation practice too. To find the show notes, give me feedback, or submit ideas for future episodes visit facilitatingonpurpose.com. Special thanks to Mary Chan at Organized Sound Productions for producing this episode. Happy facilitating!
