In this episode, host Beth Cougler Blom talks with Mary Chan, audio engineer, podcast strategist, and voice coach, about the power of voice in facilitation and beyond. Mary shares her personal journey from being behind the mic in radio to empowering others to embrace their unique voices. This engaging conversation will leave you inspired to experiment with your own voice and connect more meaningfully with others.
Beth and Mary also explore:
- Practical voice warm-ups and exercises to prepare for facilitation
- The importance of vocal diversity and authenticity in connecting with groups
- How to use voice to influence energy and engagement in a room
- Debunking myths about “professional” voices and embracing individuality
- Tips for amplifying your voice with confidence in facilitation and everyday life
Engage with Mary Chan
- Website: https://www.organizedsound.ca/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions/
Links From the Episode
- Why Filler Words Like “Like” Are Powerful with Alexandra D’Arcy – EP 18 on The Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice
- Wordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language by Amanda Montell (book)
- EP 12 Stuttering and Facilitation with Maya Chupkov (on Facilitating on Purpose podcast)
- EP 6 Learning From Our Mistakes with Beth Cougler Blom (on Facilitating on Purpose podcast)
Connect with the Facilitating on Purpose Podcast
- Follow Facilitating on Purpose on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn or YouTube
- facilitatingonpurpose.com
Connect with Beth Cougler Blom
- Give feedback or suggest upcoming show topics or guests at hello@bcblearning.com
- Visit bcblearning.com to explore Beth’s company’s services in facilitation and learning design
- Purchase a copy of Beth’s book, Design to Engage
- Follow Beth on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn
Podcast production services by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
Show Transcript
[Upbeat music playing]
Beth 00:01
[Show intro] Welcome to Facilitating on Purpose, where we explore ideas together about designing and facilitating learning. Join me to get inspired on your journey to becoming and being a great facilitator wherever you work.
Beth 00:17
I’m your host Beth Cougler Blom. [Episode intro] Hello, thanks for coming back to the podcast. I’m so excited to bring this particular episode to you because I was able to interview my friend and colleague Mary Chan from Organized Sound Productions.
Beth 00:35
Mary is the person I hire to do audio engineering on my podcast. I also hired her in the past—she helped me record the audio version of my book—and so we’ve known each other for several years and I finally was able to do an interview with Mary about her expertise in using voice.
Beth 00:54
Mary is not only an audio engineer, she’s a podcast strategist, a voice coach, and a voiceover artist. She has a background in radio. She’s going to tell us a little bit about that on the episode. And in this conversation she and I talk about using our voice in facilitation but also so much of what we discuss is just great for using our voice in the world.
Beth 01:17
So join Mary Chan and myself for this conversation about using our voice. Enjoy the show. Mary, it’s great to see you. We’re both in front of the mic this time. I’m so excited. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation with you on mic.
Beth 01:34
I was going to say on camera. We actually are on camera but actually on the mic as well instead of me on the mic and you behind the scenes. Thanks so much for joining me.
Mary 01:42
Yeah, I love being in front of the mic.
Mary 01:44
I started my career behind the mic so it was fun to be in front of the mic every now and then.
Beth 01:51
Yeah, well and we have done this before because I’ve been on your podcast and I’m going to just plug that right away because I listen to your podcast all the time.
Beth 02:01
Actually, I think I mostly hit every episode, which is maybe unusual for podcast listeners. [Mary laughs.] So I benefit a lot from what you do on the mic. And I’m so happy that you’re joining me to talk about my thing and facilitation and learning and all things related to the voice today.
Mary 02:17
Yeah, this is gonna be fun.
Beth 02:19
You mentioned your background and I wanted to start there actually, because you were a radio producer, you went into radio, I think at the start of your career. So I think just looking in a little bit not knowing you for your whole life that you’ve always been interested in the voice.
Beth 02:33
Just tell me briefly about why that was in the beginning, what inspired you to go into radio. You know, you’re still doing it, but in different ways. So tell me a little bit briefly about where you started and why you’ve been so inspired to work with the voice your whole career so far.
Mary 02:47
Yeah, it’s actually pretty interesting because you mentioned something about like my my work with the voice and all that stuff. And I was like, actually, when I started, I didn’t want to be in front of the mic AT ALL [with emphasis].
Mary 03:00
I was like, oh, I love radio. I was in high school. And it was just that connecting piece for me for like someone to listen to and ignore the teacher in front of me and listen to the radio [laughs] while I was in class.
Mary 03:15
And I loved music. And then when I found out that I could go to radio school and do this as a career, I was like, what? How’s that possible? Let’s make it happen. And so I did a two-year program at BCIT outside of Vancouver in Burnaby.
Mary 03:33
And I remember doing one of my first part-time job interviews, my first job interview in radio. I don’t know if you remember back in the day, they don’t do it as much now, but the radio stations would drive around in the summertime and look for the radio station sticker on your bumper of your car and go and do community events.
Mary 03:53
And so they would always call into the radio station and do their little blurb. And so that was the job I was essentially applying for. And she was like, okay, would you prefer to do them live or would you want them pre-recorded?
Mary 04:06
I’m like, oh no, pre-recorded, because then I can control what I’m going to say, how I’m going to say it. And she’s like, oh, you are definitely not an on-air personality type person. I was like, yeah, no, I like the behind the scenes.
Mary 04:20
But as my career evolved, I did a lot of voice work. I started out with just producing the commercials, but then I started voicing the commercials, because at the radio station, your job was one job, but you did a little bit of everything because there were few people on staff.
Mary 04:40
And so I had to do a lot of voicing for commercials. I was also on-air from 10 to 2 p.m. And then I did what I loved at that time was the production side after that. So there was a lot of on-air voice stuff.
Mary 04:57
And I actually did not like my voice. I thought I sounded like a little six-year-old on the radio [going into a high-pitched voice] pretending to be an adult. And my voice was a lot more high-pitched, kind of like this, and I didn’t really know what I was doing I didn’t feel confident.
Mary 05:13
[In normal voice] But because I was on the radio every day I was forced to use my voice and I had to listen to my voice every single day and I realized that’s not me so how do I become who I am? And it was from there where I was like oh wow we can really shift how we speak and present ourselves based on how we’re feeling, how we want the other person to feel, the listener, and then what it is to become like that authentic—I don’t really like that word—but like that authentic voice, the authentic you, and who you truly are versus the I guess I’m supposed to sound this way to be professional,
Mary 05:59
quote unquote, or to sound that I am supposed to say these things versus it’s just me. It’s just how I roll. This is how I talk and this is who I am.
Beth 06:09
Yeah, it seems like a real journey that you have been on and maybe you’re still on it, but I’ve heard you talk about this before, like getting used to your voice and being okay with it and realizing it’s great.
Beth 06:22
Like you actually have a great voice. I mean, I listen to it all the time because I listen to your podcast, as I said. But that journey, it seems like it’s been the thing that, or one of them, that has helped you then now work with your clients to help them get comfortable with their voice, right?
Mary 06:37
Yeah.
Beth 06:38
Like it’s, you have a personal journey that you were on and how does that work for your clients? Like what can you bring to them? Because I see some of the taglines on your website. I was looking at it again today.
Beth 06:50
You say you’re helping people “speak with spirit” and maybe “using their heart voice”. And I’m going, okay, these are new terms to us. Like tell us more about how you work with people to help them get used to their own voice.
Mary 07:02
I had a client recently who wanted to create this podcast on very serious, serious topics, talking about like abuse, child abuse and things like that. And she wanted to create this narrative style podcast.
Mary 07:17
So it’s kind of like, you know, like your true crime, there’s like a specific number of episodes. So that’s what she was looking to do. And she didn’t have any radio background or anything like that, but she knew she wanted to create this podcast.
Mary 07:30
But as she was working on it, she’s like, this isn’t me. Why am I sounding this way? What is going on? Why is it taking me so long to even get my intro out? Like what is happening? And so we talked through it and was like, okay, what are those masks that we put on when we feel like we need to play a certain role?
Mary 07:55
So we might have the mask of fear. I don’t know really what I’m doing, but I know I wanna get this out there, but I’m afraid of it sounding bad. Or that mask of fear of professionalism. A lot of people come to me and they’re like, oh, you come from radio, you’ve got that professional voice.
Mary 08:17
And I’m like, well, it is something that I’ve been honing since I was in high school wanting to get into the radio program, but I also don’t believe that a professional voice is something that everybody needs to aspire to because it is a very old school thought and something that came from broadcasting as the professional, quote unquote, professional voice.
Mary 08:43
Because way back in the day, like hundreds of years ago, there was someone in England who was like, oh, we need to have a standard broadcast so that when you broadcast on radio or TV and that broad, that word meaning general broadcast, we need to sound so that anyone can understand what we’re saying.
Mary 09:06
We can’t have an accent. Otherwise people won’t understand what you’re saying, which is totally, totally false. And so that’s become the standard. And people still think that. And because the work that we do on the podcast, people think, okay, well, podcast is like radio.
Mary 09:22
I need to sound a specific way. Then we get that mask of, okay, well, I have to sound professional, so I’m gonna lower my voice. [Lowers her voice a bit.] I am going to say certain words that will have me sound smart. I will try and stop saying um and ah.
Mary 09:42
But these are things that society put upon us. And so that long story short, that client of mine was like, oh my gosh, you’re right. If this is a podcast I wanna talk about, that is although very serious, very serious subject matter about child abuse, you can’t put on a plain voice of lower case, I’m gonna say this, this is what is happening.
Mary 10:10
Because there’s so many emotions involved in this that you can go from really angry from neutral still, like these are the facts to I’m really happy now because this is the outcome from this whole story.
Mary 10:26
And you get to walk a whole range of emotions when you are presenting.
Beth 10:32
I think in some ways you and I are in the same business, right? Because as a facilitator and a learning designer, when I’m working with my clients, it’s like, can we just be humans [Mary: Yes!] over here in the facilitation role and just, you know, that you know, I’ve talked about the word professional before and I hate it too, because it does seem like it’s just one type of professional that we’re all supposed to be.
Beth 10:56
And we’re not all that. We’re diverse, wonderful, unique people. And so in your work too, there’s verbal diversity, there’s vocal diversity. And that’s one of the benefits that I’ve drawn working with you is you’ve introduced me to some of those concepts where then I can take it back and apply it to facilitation.
Beth 11:14
Remember when you interviewed Maya Chupkov on your podcast? [Mary: Yeah.] And then I thought, Oh my gosh, you know, Maya, is the host of the Proud Stutter podcast. And I thought, I’ve never even thought about stuttering and facilitation before together.
Beth 11:28
And I thought she’d be such a great guest. And so I stole her from you and she was a great guest! [They laugh.]
Mary 11:33
No stealing, we share.
Beth 11:35
Exactly. We share back and forth because some of those vocal pieces, we don’t think enough in training and facilitation world.
Beth 11:42
And we’re not saying, Oh, everyone has to be the same in our voice and just get to the standard. As you say, we’re saying that there’s space for all of us and let’s just get excited and confident. I think you probably work a lot with confidence with your clients about what voice we have.
Beth 11:58
And there’s room for all of us.
Mary 12:01
Yeah. Yeah. Touching back to you were talking about like asking me about the heart voice. When I was talking about all those emotions, you can have that when you are having a conversation with a friend, doing your facilitation work, that professional setting.
Mary 12:15
We need emotions because that’s how you connect with who you are speaking to. If you’re just going to be this monotone person, no one’s going to connect with that. It is about the emotions. And when you work on your voice, it’s not just for facilitation, right?
Mary 12:32
It’s not for that professional realm. It is going to encompass everything that you do in your life because you use your voice constantly for everything: for your romantic relationships, for your family relationships, for your child relationships, for working with a contractor who’s coming to your house to fix your fence, whatever.
Mary 12:55
It all applies. And if you are truly yourself, bringing that to the table will create such a better connection in whatever layer of relationship that you have.
Beth 13:07
So I know you’ve done training as well in bringing your expertise to groups.
Beth 13:12
When you go out and do that kind of work, what do you think about your voice? Are there things like, do you prepare your voice in certain ways? Or do you think about it as you’re facilitating that workshop or that session?
Beth 13:25
You know, what are the things that you’re doing maybe around your voice that other people could do too?
Mary 13:29
Well, when I’m actually facilitating in that moment, I don’t think about my voice because I want to be thinking about the people.
Mary 13:37
What are they going to be doing? How can I inspire them? And so that’s the focus, right? The voice work is all the pre—it’s before it all happens. And then the post. Also when your facilitation is done, let’s reflect and then you can reflect on your voice at the same time.
Mary 13:54
So well, some of the things that I do in terms of like a vocal warm up is just making sure that hey, your voice is also a muscle. Like if you go and work out, you might do a bit of stretching beforehand, right?
Mary 14:10
Or you might want to get some water and hydrate before you go. Same thing because your voice is not just your vocal cords, which are a muscle, but also your lips and your tongue. Those are all muscles and they need to be stretched and worked out a little bit.
Mary 14:26
And it’s not like you need to do this for a long time before you facilitate, but even just having that notion of, okay, I got one minute before I got to go facilitate and people are coming into the room.
Mary 14:37
So let’s just open my jaw wide, stretch out your tongue. Your shoulders are part of this whole connection too. So let’s do some shoulder rolls, stretch your arms out. Your body is part of your voice.
Mary 14:53
So like, if you know you have tension in certain spots, stretch that out before you do your facilitation. So your body is key and it’s not just about like, oh, maybe I’ll do, you know, those vocal things of la, la, la, la, la, la, la that you’ve maybe heard people do for singing.
Mary 15:12
And I’m like, yes, that’s helpful, but it’s not just about that. It’s about feeling comfortable in your body, making sure your body is moving and where are those stress points that you can just relax and be like, I’m going to have a good time today.
Mary 15:24
And that’s where your voice actually starts with that confidence piece.
Beth 15:29
Hmm, that’s interesting because it can be, is the right word mirror? I don’t know, it can kind of mirror what’s going on in your body, your voice.
Beth 15:35
So the more comfortable we are, the more relaxed, then the voice shows it. It sounds like, yeah, that’s a good reminder for me too! [They laugh.]
Mary 15:44
Yeah, I remember too, like I was doing, when the pandemic first started and I was having my first facilitation on podcasting over like, it was a big Zoom group.
Mary 15:56
And then I found out like hundreds of people have, you know, bought tickets to this podcasting event. And I was like, oh my God. Like, I was so, so nervous. And again, someone who’s been training their voice for, you know, two decades, or more at this point, and I’m just like, my hands were shaking, my shoulders were really up, and it was just knowing, okay, I have 10 minutes before, let’s just,
Mary 16:22
what do I need to do? And I knew I had to dance it out. I didn’t have any music, but I was just like, let’s just jump, let’s just shake my hands, take some deep breaths, your breath is really your foundation as well, part of your body.
Mary 16:36
And so I was like, let’s take some long breaths, exhale longer than you inhale, and shake it all out. And that’s what worked for me. And so it’s also trying to figure out what works for you. I had another client who was like, my left leg starts shaking when I get anxious.
Mary 16:55
And so I’m like, great, let’s work on your left leg so that your voice can be truly who you are because when you’re nervous you start shaking and climbing up and when you climb up then your voice shakes and you know. So yeah it’s figuring out where where you need that relaxing before you can actually get into the vocal part of the warm-ups.
Beth 17:17
I am so conscious of what is happening in my body right now as we talk about this! [They laugh.] I’m thinking all the things that you taught me too and I know I’ve forgotten some of them but even just now. Like we are both standing because you taught me —when you helped me record my book—you taught me I need to stand. Like get a standing mic and and that’s going to help my voice and now pretty much you know 9.8 times out of 10 when I record podcasts or when I teach online like on Zoom I’m standing.
Beth 17:44
And I have a standing desk so you know there’s some privilege around the tools to be able to do this for sure but yeah just thinking about standing. But then of course I’m about my knees and how they’re like locking up and I need to you know just wiggle a little bit and keep it loose as we go along here. One thing that you told me, one vocal warm-up that you helped me learn, and I still use is the lion roar.
Mary 18:07
Ah that’s my favourite.
Beth 18:07
You know you were talking about really like opening your mouth wide like you know [makes a roar sound]. I won’t do it too much, it’s gonna sound awful I’m sure on the audio. But just getting that kind of—I always call it verklempt—like that verklempt throat out and try to clear you know the sound of my voice through those lion roars. They’ve been really helpful.
Mary 18:26
Yeah because people never think about stretching their throat and how do you do that right? So for those who don’t know, you stick the tip of your tongue to the back of your bottom teeth and then try and stick your tongue at the back of your tongue out and just open your mouth and [makes a ‘ha’ sound] exhale and that stretches the back of your throat, your upper palate, your lips, your jaw, and even like your shoulders when you go when go ‘ah’. When you relax, your shoulders are going too. So it’s just a really nice quick and easy thing to relax your body and be like,
Mary 19:03
okay, I’m aware of what is stuck in sticky and let’s unstick that.
Beth 19:08
Yeah. And not having dairy, frankly, helps. [They laugh.] Like I still have to have that one coffee with a little bit of cream in it, but I try not to have two, right?
Beth 19:17
Because that dairy is a real killer for the voice.
Mary 19:19
Yeah. It just makes your mouth have a lot of stickiness that, on a podcast at least, is not great sounding for people who are listening with headphones on.
Mary 19:30
But if you’re facilitating and you need that dairy, sure, that’s that’s no problem. [They laugh.]
Beth 19:36
Can we talk about some of the specific voice challenges related to facilitation? The one I’m thinking about, first of all, is I’m thinking in person, getting our voice to the back of the room.
Beth 19:46
You know, I think that can be a challenge for maybe new facilitators or even people who have been doing it for a while. How do we train our voice so that we can get there, you know, that our voice is loud enough to to work with a group of 20 or 30 people and and not have to have a mic.
Beth 20:04
Although using mics, we can talk about that as well, because there’s there’s some good things about that, too. But what do you say to help people, what do we call that, strengthen their voice so that it can be a little bit more powerful?
Mary 20:14
It’s all about projection. So we’re not talking about you need to scream or yell because that’s not great for the voice either, then your vocal cords are like slamming against each other. And that’s not going to be good.
Mary 20:28
But you want to make sure that when you project, part of that is having enough breath. So when you have enough breath, then you’ll be able to project your voice a little further. So it’s thinking about, okay, yes, you can see the people in front of you when you’re facilitating, but also look to the back.
Mary 20:48
And when you look to the back, you’re automatically going to be like, oh, you over there, like your your brain already knows I’m going to project a little bit more. So I think also knowing the size of your room and where people are and looking at everybody helps.
Mary 21:05
So hopefully you’re already doing that in your facilitation. But knowing that, okay, if someone’s in the back corner, I’m going to look at them and I’ll be able to speak to them a little bit more because I do need to project.
Mary 21:16
But getting back to your breath, you need that breath in order to project. So it’s not like I’m going to take a big breath of air and then I’m going to—but knowing that the breath is going to be your support, that you’re going to take a breath every time you have a pause and thought, then that will help support your I’m going to project to the back of the room.
Mary 21:38
I’m going to talk about this next message. And I’m going to talk to the person in the back of the room for that. But ideally, back to the microphone, that would be best to use a microphone because there’s also times when somebody in the front of the room has a question.
Mary 21:56
And they’re not thinking of projecting, they’re thinking of just asking you, the facilitator, the question, who they’re standing or sitting next to. And so you want to make sure that you have a mic to also help the people in the back of the room hear everything.
Mary 22:10
Or if you’re the only one with the mic and you can’t get it to the person, to be able to then repeat the question into the microphone so that everybody hears, right? So there’s to not just project and not just about your voice, but it’s about including all the voices in the room.
Beth 22:26
Yeah, there’s an inclusion thing there for me too, right? Because so many times I’ve seen the facilitator, whoever it is, at the front of the room say, do I need to use a mic? Yes, you do. Some people go, the front people say, no, and then, okay, great, you know?
Beth 22:40
And so what if we’ve got someone who’s hard of hearing in the room? Are they really going to be outing themselves in that moment saying, actually, I need it? [Mary: Yeah.] You know, so we probably should just use the mics and hopefully there are lavaliers and they’re a little easier to wear or whatever, but if it’s there
Beth 22:56
we probably should use it.
Mary 22:57
There’s a reason why it’s there. [chuckles]
Beth 22:59
Let’s think about voice and energy because there are things that you’ve taught me around just, you know, you already mentioned, you know, the high voice or the low voice or, you know, putting feeling into it.
Beth 23:12
What would you say more about just how we can use our voice to affect what’s happening with the group? You know, bringing their energy up, bringing it down. Like we have power and ability there to do something and people are always wondering about how to engage groups.
Beth 23:28
So this is one way, right? Like using our voice to affect the group’s energy.
Mary 23:32
Yeah. So your voice and what energy you put into your voice is exactly the energy that your audience is going to get from you.
Mary 23:43
So if you’re like, okay, I’m just going to facilitate, I’m going to talk about these things today, point one, point two, point, and you’re monotone, then people in the audience are just going to be like, oh, great.
Mary 23:56
I’ve got that same energy. But if you’re able to use all range of your voice and your range of your voice is going to differ every day, because like I said, it’s a muscle. So sometimes it can get really high [takes voice high] and sometimes it can get really low [takes voice low] and you need that.
Mary 24:14
And some people might think, ooh, back to that mask of professionalism, I’m going to stay low down here. I don’t want to be way up here [takes voice really high] because then I’ll sound childish. That’s my fear, right? I don’t want to sound childish.
Mary 24:27
But when humans speak, we have that range of emotions. And so we need to go way up high when we want to be energetic. We want to go way down low when we’re like, you know what, I want to make a point here.
Mary 24:42
And so you use that to pull people in and to change the energy of the room. And it’s not like, I’m going to go high all the time. And I’m going to go low now all the time. It’s about using that range
Mary 24:56
and everything in between at all times. So I kind of think about this as an elevator. And so your voice is an elevator. If you’re stuck in the basement all the time, it’s a dark dungeon. Why do you want to be stuck in the basement all the time? [All in a low voice.]
Mary 25:13
You want to sometimes go up the elevator [takes voice to a mid-level tone] and maybe, you know, hit the main floor because you’re going to go to the kitchen and grab a drink of water, but then it’s time to go to bed. [Takes voice higher.] So you’re going to go up a little higher and relax in bed and be over here and be like, ah, I’m going to relax a little bit in my relax middle range voice.
Mary 25:33
And sometimes it’s amazing [takes voice very high] to be up at the penthouse with the rooftop garden. Oh my gosh, this is so cool up here. Look at the sights from this skyscraper. And you need that full range of the entire elevator because that’s where all our emotions lie.
Beth 25:51
You make it sound so easy. And I know I hear it all the time in your podcast because I can analyze it now from just that little bit of extra level when I listen to you going, oh, listen to Mary using her voice, you know, [giggles] when you’re excited or yeah, you’re trying to kind of just make that more serious point or whatever.
Beth 26:08
But what if we’ve got someone listening that’s more reserved, you know, like I was in theatre when I was growing up, like I was a kind of a shy kid that went into theatre and, you know, was made to stand up and sing in front of the, you know, at the festival like that kind of stuff.
Beth 26:24
And then so eventually I became a facilitator and I had some of that other discipline, almost training in my life. So I feel like I have some of that vocal range because of some of the other things I’ve done.
Beth 26:34
Not everybody has been able to benefit from some of those past experiences, right? Or they’re just a more reserved person. Like how do you work with someone to just get them to tap in to the full range that they’ve got?
Mary 26:45
Well, first I always say, if you are a more reserved speaker, embrace that because there are people out there who want that reserved, that quietness. That, you know, when you’re facilitating, you don’t have to be loud and boisterous all the time.
Mary 27:01
It’s not about like high energy all the time. Let’s go kick it to notch number 11. [Says really excitedly.] But, you know, you could be facilitating about a mindfulness retreat, you know, then you want, you do want that slower, calmer, reserved voice, but you still can have a range within that.
Mary 27:23
You can be quiet, but still hit that higher peak to make a point or just come back down low and be like, we’re going to take a breath here. So your range doesn’t always have to go way up to the penthouse suite constantly, but like if you’re going to stay on your main floor, you know, hit the bedroom every now and then.
Mary 27:44
Go to another spot in the house of that elevator. It’s about embracing what you have in your voice and the qualities that you have and knowing who you are speaking to. So if your audience is ready for a high energy rockin’ facilitation session, let’s do it.
Mary 28:04
But if this is more subdued, then your voice is perfect for that as well.
Beth 28:09
Again, there’s room for everybody and it makes me think about the times when I’ve co-facilitated, especially with someone who has a different natural energy level than I do.
Beth 28:18
And in fact, once I remember my co-facilitator got feedback that I forget the word that was used in the evaluation. It was one of those stupid things you read in the evaluation forms where someone was like, oh, you know, they were too kooky for me or something like that. [They laugh.]
Beth 28:33
And we’re like, okay, we’ll throw that out. That’s kind of a silly comment, right? We don’t need to pay attention to that. But in some ways it tells me there was something that they were doing that didn’t resonate with the person and maybe I did.
Beth 28:44
There’s another time where I didn’t resonate with someone but my co-facilitator did because we are different people. We can’t meet everyone’s needs all the time. And even with just our energy level and voice and so on, like we can be diverse and unique, but we can’t just say we’re going to hit it out of the park a hundred percent of the time with everybody.
Beth 29:01
There’s no way we can do that too. So we’re okay with that.
Mary 29:05
Yeah, we’re totally okay with that. I was thinking back to when I was talking about broadcast, where the voices on the radio and TV are meant to be broad and general.
Mary 29:15
And I remember working with this lovely young woman and she was starting her broadcast career. She was on the air and she had a very unique voice. It wasn’t your typical broadcast voice. They knew exactly who she was when she came on the air.
Mary 29:31
You knew exactly which radio station you were listening to when she was on the air. And it was, I thought, a very powerful move. It’s different, it’s unique, you’re standing out. But we did have a couple of people who would say, oh, who’s that person?
Mary 29:48
And it was because we had put her voice on a commercial. And so it was that client who was like, I don’t feel like that fits my brand of my business. I can’t have that voice, no. So you can’t appease everyone, but at the same time, I feel like when your voice is unique and it is, everyone’s voice is unique.
Mary 30:11
It’s like a thumbprint. We all are different, even though my sister and I sound very similar. I do have more of a different range than she does. So we are all unique. We should be embracing the uniqueness because that’s better than, I hated it growing up when everybody thought that they were talking to my sister.
Mary 30:32
And I was like, they pick up the call the phone and they’re like, hi, da, da, da, da, da. I’m like, no, you want my sister? Fine, hold on, wait. It’s nice to be unique and who you are.
Beth 30:43
I have a feeling with your voice, if I heard it in a different context, I would know it, you know, because you have that unique quality to it.
Beth 30:51
And I’d go, Oh, that’s Mary, you know. And that’s, that’s a great thing. I have been watching, do you know the singing show called The Voice?
Mary 30:58
I know of it, but I’ve never actually watched it. Yeah.
Beth 31:01
Yeah. I’ve just watched, you know, two or three seasons, but that’s one of the things that they say about the artists, the singers that go on there, that if you heard that one particular person, they’re so unique that you would know as soon as they, they sang that that was, that was them, like it’s not anyone else.
Beth 31:18
And they’re looking for that. Like that’s star quality for a singer.
Mary 31:23
Exactly!
Beth 31:23
Yeah. So as a podcast host, as a facilitator, you know, I was thinking about us doing facilitation in, in Zoom or Teams or in person, but there’s also like the social media aspect of what we’re doing too, because we don’t just use our voice in teaching or facilitation.
Beth 31:39
We’re recording audios, we’re recording videos to share on social media. So there’s, there’s all sorts of ways that we’re able to tap into the unique qualities of our voice in the full range of what we’re doing these days.
Mary 31:52
Yeah, and that’s the thing too. I usually don’t like social media for all the usual reasons that most people don’t like social media. [Laughs.] But one of the things I do like about it for voice is especially for those who don’t have their own podcast to listen back to their voice, it’s such a great way to review what your voice is doing in that moment, right?
Mary 32:17
I think sometimes people go too far the other way and then they’re like, oh, I gotta record that video again because I sounded terrible. Versus, you know what? This is who you are with all the mistakes and the flubs and the weird camera angles or whatever is going on.
Mary 32:34
Record it once, that’s who you are, and put it out there. Because then you can actually go back and be like, oh, that’s why I sounded that way because there was a glare in my eye. So then you know next time maybe don’t face the sun, be at a different angle or whatever it may be. But you have that platform to be discerning and be not critical of yourself and judgmental, but knowing, hey, I can look back at this and listen to it and figuring out what I can shift in my voice.
Beth 33:08
Yeah, and just let it ride as you say. There’s so many times where I’ve done that either, mostly recording the solo episodes, I would say, right? And I have the ability because I do it in GarageBand and I can go back and cut that piece out or whatever.
Beth 33:23
And you know, sometimes I do do that, but then other times I’m kind of thinking, well, what would Mary think? Like, would Mary think that this is okay to leave in or would the listeners be okay with this emotion that I’ve displayed or whatever it happens to be?
Beth 33:36
And I’ve left it in. I remember the one time I almost started to cry. I don’t know if you remember that episode where I was like, I heard and felt that catch in my throat and I immediately stopped recording.
Beth 33:48
But then I left it in and actually I got feedback later that that was the moment where people were really drawn in to what I was sharing, right? That was the episode about me making a mistake. And I thought, okay, this is a vulnerable spot I’m in here.
Beth 34:04
But I’m going to let my voice just ride in how that was real life, right? Me reflecting my voice in that way. And don’t cut that out if that happens to you, you listeners out there.
Mary 34:15
Exactly. That is that emotional piece that you want to connect with. When you’re facilitating, it doesn’t matter what the topic is. There is going to be an emotional piece in there and that shouldn’t be mentally even cut out.
Mary 34:31
Like if you’re alive and facilitating in person and you’re like, oh, I don’t want to go there. Maybe go there for a little bit and unlock that piece because then your listeners, your audience, is going to be like
Mary 34:46
Oh, I get it now. I felt that too. And that’s where the connection piece comes in.
Beth 34:54
Yeah, that draws people in, draws them to us. I mean, there’s a limit there, isn’t there? [Mary: Yes.] We’re not going to full blown go into crying mode or whatever, but like a little, you know, showing emotion, having that catch in the voice, like it’s real, isn’t it? [Mary: Yeah.]
Beth 35:08
And that’s how we connect, as you say.
Mary 35:10
Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t have to be, yeah, like the crying stuff. But for me, when I get really passionate about something—my nickname in radio school was Angry Chan.
Mary 35:21
My last name being Chan, because when I got passionate, I was loud, I was yelling. And that’s the same, like you, you can still have your emotion. It doesn’t mean emotion is crying, that it can be really happy.
Mary 35:39
[Changes her voice to excited] I’m so, so happy this is happening for you, you know, or maybe when somebody gets something, when you’re facilitating, you’re like, yes, that’s it. That’s what I mean. You know, you’re still going in that emotional range.
Beth 35:53
I bet if people now went and sat in someone else’s workshop, and they really just looked at that person and heard them and thought about their voice, they’d probably see all sorts of stuff going on, right, that they hadn’t seen before.
Beth 36:07
I’m hoping that this episode just kind of opens people’s minds up to see things at a different level and how others might be skilled at using their voice to do all those things we’ve been talking about: connect with folks, draw them in, make a point.
Mary 36:21
Yeah, I think one of the great things too, is with our digital age, is we have so much access to people’s voice right now. They are full range of voices. And what I usually say to people is, who are your favourite voices?
Mary 36:39
Whether that be a celebrity that you listen to on their podcast, or their YouTube channel, or what have you, or on a movie, when they do interviews. Or it could even be your mom, your best friend. Who are those voices and what is it that you love about that voice?
Mary 36:56
So that you too can draw from that and be like, I want to be like that.
Beth 37:01
Yeah. And again, there’s not, you’re not copying them, are you? [Mary: No, no.] Because you can’t, you’re both unique people, but what is it that you can kind of borrow or just think, yeah, I like that.
Beth 37:09
I’d like to be like that and own that for myself.
Mary 37:13
Exactly.
Beth 37:13
Is there anything that’s gendered that we should talk about? I’m thinking about upspeak in women’s voices or things like that. Like are there, is it gendered at all
Beth 37:23
what challenges we can have with our voice—or really does everyone…
Mary 37:29
Yeah, yeah, I’m just going to stop you right there. [They laugh.]
Beth 37:33
Like what do we, upspeak comes to mind, you know, pretty first and foremost. Are there certain challenges that we really should be watching out for?
Mary 37:40
Well, not that we should be watching out for, but knowing that … doesn’t matter what gender you are, you have all of these things. But it is the feminine voices that tend to be talked about more. So upspeak, if people don’t know what that is, that’s when you tend to end your sentences up like a question. [Starts to talk in upspeak.]
Mary 38:01
And so every time you say your statement, you’re going to go up in inflection, then the professional, when I do it in that voice again, it means quote unquote, the professional will tell you, oh, it makes you sound like you don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re questioning everything that you sound not confident.
Mary 38:21
So there’s that. Another one could be vocal fry where you don’t have enough breath at the end of your thought to support your vocal cord. So they kind of shake at the end. I can’t really do it now because I’ve worked my way out of that one.
Mary 38:37
That one comes from the Kim Kardashian era, the Kardashians. They tend to have that vocal fry where they just, uh, at the end of their, their voice or their sentence was kind of like this where their vocal cords are more relaxed sounding.
Mary 38:53
These things were put upon female voices because the male voices were the ones traditionally going again, going back hundreds of years, men were the ones that hold all the power. They made all the decisions.
Mary 39:09
And so one of those ways to hold onto that power is to make women feel less of. So, oh, you speak with an upspeak with that question in your voice. You don’t know what you’re talking about. So I’m going to put you down and that’s a bad thing.
Mary 39:25
Oh, vocal fry. Oh, you don’t sound confident because you’re kind of raspy at the end there. You’re not confident. I’m going to put you down. But there has been hundreds of years where women, the feminine part of our gender have evolved language.
Mary 39:44
We were the ones that takes language and builds upon it and makes it what it is because we talk we converse in a horizontal plane. And so when we do that we are supporting and helping each other. So when we are speaking with upspeak it’s because it’s a subconscious thing that we’re now doing saying, hey do you understand what I mean? And feel free to let me know if you understand. And that’s what we are all subconsciously doing. It’s not we’re not confident, it’s not that that we’re not confident. It is, we speak horizontally so that we want to make sure everyone is heard versus the more male stereotypical male side where they’re jousting to win.
Mary 40:34
So they’re always just going to go on a vertical plane where one person speaks, the other person tries to speak higher in that ladder so that that can win. They make another point and they go higher and who’s gonna win the conversation.
Mary 40:46
But when the feminine voices come in, we’re like, we wanna speak in a circle. We wanna make sure that you’re heard. And it’s okay if we’re gonna be asking a question because that’s what we do.
Beth 40:59
I love that. I’ve never heard that before, the horizontal plane versus the vertical plane. And it makes me think about collaboration. Like horizontal plane, we’re trying to collaborate. We’re trying to say, well, I’ve got an idea but maybe someone else has a better idea.
Beth 41:12
So let’s just leave room for that because maybe we can be better together or whatever [chuckles]. [Mary: Yeah.] Yeah. So the patriarchy has made us feel bad about this [Mary: Yes [chuckles]] and let’s just all recognize that, I suppose, yeah.
Mary 41:26
Yeah. And know that all voices have these things but it is those female voices that always get picked on and that way they can put us all in a box. But we are all unique. We have all of these things. I still have vocal fry when I was talking about, it’s hard for me to get into, but I do have it when I have a tired day.
Mary 41:48
When I’ve been sick, it happens to the best of us. These things are gonna happen. When we say ahhhh, ummm, we do that because we’re thinking and it’s not because we’re not confident in our voice or we’re not strong or not powerful.
Mary 42:05
It’s because we’re speaking on that horizontal plane and we wanna make sure that we are choosing the best phrasing in that moment. So we do say, ah, and um every now and then. And I was speaking with actually locally in Victoria, at UVic, a professor, Dr. Alexandra Darcy.
Mary 42:23
She, mind blown for me, this idea that ah and um we’re actually using that as a purpose. And there are different phrases that come after those words. Like an ah will have a different type of speech afterwards versus an um because ahs and ums actually have a job that they’re doing so they shouldn’t be erased from our verbiage.
Beth 42:50
I love that. And there are also phrases that I think we use in that realm as well because every time I hear someone say, after they’ve been asked a question, “That’s such a good question.” I think it’s time for them to think about what their answer is to that question.
Beth 43:05
Like, that’s a phrase that is kind of like one of those filler words of ah or um, isn’t it? Like we do these little things and they kind of mean something. It’s like, well, maybe it’s the best question they’ve ever heard, but it’s probably not. [laughs]
Beth 43:16
It’s really just something people say automatically to give themselves time to think.
Mary 43:21
Yeah. So I feel like if those things are something that you personally want to work on, it’s not something that someone’s like, oh, you need to get rid of that in your speech.
Mary 43:33
And then you’re like, well, now I can’t stop thinking about it ’cause that’s what we just keep talking about. But if it is something that you want to work on, then instead of using, um, uh, or that’s a great question.
Mary 43:46
Pause. Pausing is so good because people don’t use it enough [chuckles]. Because that pause is letting your listener know, let me think about that. I have something important to say. I’m going to pause. And a lot of people feel awkward about it.
Mary 44:06
Because they’re like, I gotta fill in all the silence. Or I don’t want that other person to interject and interrupt me. But if we are speaking on that horizontal plane, the person will give you space to think about what you want to say.
Mary 44:21
So if you want to work on removing some of those filler words or vocal tics, then make sure to just pause, think about it. And if you are in person, then you have a visual part too, where you can actually put your hands up or be like, hmm.
Mary 44:37
And people can see that you’re thinking, right? So you’ll have that visual part as well when you’re facilitating in person. So silence isn’t silence. You’re still communicating with your body.
Beth 44:48
And as facilitators, I think we should know this, right? [Mary laughs.]
Beth 44:51
Right? We talk about silence a lot and using silence intentionally. We think about it when we’re giving silence to the group so that they can work on something probably most of all. But now I think everybody can take away that we need silence to just get our words together in a way as well.
Beth 45:09
So we don’t put all those things in. Like, so yeah, some of them aren’t so bad, right?
Mary 45:13
It’s part of our everyday speech.
Beth 45:15
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But overuse kind of does distract, doesn’t it?
Mary 45:18
It can. But what I usually say is we’re not here on the world stage creating a speech that is, you know, for all these G7 world leaders or what have you, right?
Mary 45:30
Most of the time when we’re, even when we’re facilitating in that professional setting, we are doing it in conversation. We are trying to make sure that everybody understands what we’re saying. So it is okay to put those pauses in.
Mary 45:43
It is okay to have the ums and the ahs because we are human, essentially, we’re human. And that’s how we speak.
Beth 45:51
That’s such a great point to almost end on. I think our humanity and bringing our humanity to the voice.
Beth 45:58
Is there anything final that you’d like to say to just give people hope around using their voice more and being more intentional with their voice?
Mary 46:07
Yeah, if you’re looking into doing this more, like just being aware of what your voice can do, what I love is when people read things out loud.
Mary 46:19
And it’s going to be awkward, it’s going to be weird, and it will be because it is weird to do vocal work. And so, you know, everyone’s got a phone, hit record on a voice note or something, and just practice.
Mary 46:35
Read things every day out loud, whether it be your shopping list, or an actual article that you’re reading, or a magazine that’s on the coffee table, or what have you. Read it out loud and read it in different voices so that you can play around with what this sounds like.
Mary 46:57
So, for example, I have a shopping list right here. Okay, so you can read your shopping list as a fairy. [Voice goes quite high.] So, if you think of a fairy, maybe it’s Tinkerbell, and we’re going to go up high, and we’re like, okay, I need to get mushrooms for pasta for a Thursday dinner, and then I also need pork for our stew, and I need some spinach too.
Mary 47:21
[In a normal voice.] Sounds silly, but then you’re like, okay, I can get into that range. I can get up here if I need to use it. Or the other part could be, let’s read the same shopping list, but let’s read it like, oh, geez, I watched Lord of the Rings the other day.
Mary 47:35
[Voice goes really low and raspy, with more emphasis.] So, an orc, we’re going to go way down here, you know, like a gremlin, and you’re going to go mushrooms for pasta, stew, pork, and spinach, right? [Back to normal voice.] And it’s just playing with your voice. What can it do?
Mary 47:53
And so, you’re getting comfortable, and then you have to do a presentation or your facilitating or you’re recording something for an Instagram post, your voice is already recognizing those ranges, and they’re like, I can go there, I can have fun, this is fun, and I’m okay with that.
Beth 48:11
I know people cannot see me, but I’m just beaming over here. I thought you were just gonna say, like, read an email you’re gonna send aloud or something [laughs], not like, read your grocery list as a character from Lord of the Rings, that’s so awesome. [They both laugh.]
Mary 48:26
But that’s the fun of it.
Beth 48:27
It is fun, and I was gonna bring it back to that. You said it’s fun, like, it is fun to learn more about how to use our voice. And, you know, all those folks out there who are trying to figure out how to engage groups and work with them, this is one of the keys, isn’t it,
Beth 48:41
to be able to do that. [Mary: It is.] Yeah, I’ve so enjoyed learning—I thought I knew a lot from you, Mary, we’ve worked together for several years now, and I’m happy that we’ve become friends and colleagues both along the way, but I’ve learned so much more from you today.
Beth 48:55
Thanks for being with me and sharing this.
Mary 48:58
Well, thanks, Beth, for having me on. And, you know, like I’m always learning, too. I’m constantly learning about the voice because it changes over time as you create more experiences.
Mary 49:09
You learn from that, too. And as we get older, our voice is changing. Your vocal cords are a muscle that’s evolving over time. So like things change. And I’m always like interested in learning more about voice.
Mary 49:23
And so I’m also learning alongside you at the same time.
Beth 49:27
I love that. Thank you. Well, we’ll, you know, keep listening to each other’s podcasts. And thanks again for all your support of me and, and again for this conversation.
Mary 49:36
All right. Thanks, Beth.
Beth 49:39
[Episode outro] I had such a great conversation with Mary and I just loved the time we spent together. She has worked with me for several years, as I already told you, and she still taught me things or reminded me of things, of course, that she had taught me before.
Beth 49:54
And I’d forgotten [laughs] such as really how to do the lion roar. I think I was probably doing it wrong for a while because I forgot all the little details of where to put your tongue and all that kind of stuff.
Beth 50:06
But Mary is such an expert in the voice. And as I said, I’ve just learned from her so much over the years, both in our behind the scenes conversations about how I run this podcast and how I use my voice, but also listening to her interview guests on her podcast that I learned from as well.
Beth 50:24
And she’s just a wonderful human being [chuckles] so that is also nice to work with Mary in that regard. I’m actually going to read some of her bio for you now. I don’t tend to do this a ton when people submit their bios to me for the podcast, but I thought you might be interested in something that she said in her bio that she gave to me.
Beth 50:41
Here it is. “Born and raised in Vancouver, B.C., to immigrant parents, Mary was told to stay quiet. Today, Mary gives historically marginalized communities the self confidence with their voice because she felt that she didn’t have one growing up.”
Beth 50:56
Isn’t that interesting because Mary herself was told to stay quiet yet she rebelled [laughs] and went and created and crafted an amazing career for herself using her voice and now she helps others do it too.
Beth 51:11
She is an expert in her field, let’s face it, and whether or not you’re interested in podcasting yourself or if you just want to get more tips on using your voice in teaching, training, or facilitation, I really encourage you to go check out her podcast episodes because they’re great.
Beth 51:26
I was so interested to hear the piece that she taught us around the horizontal plane versus the vertical plane and when we stopped recording she was telling me where that concept comes from and so I’m going to share that with you now and I’ll put it in the show notes too.
Beth 51:43
She told me that comes from a book called Word Slut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language by Amanda Montel. So again I’ll put that in the show notes for you so you can go and read that book.
Beth 51:54
I’m interested in grabbing that one myself because there is a lot I think that we, particularly as women, could learn and relearn about using our voice that might be useful to us all. Lastly I’ll just say that you heard Mary say that she’s always learning.
Beth 52:10
I’m always learning as well. Of course I had to learn how to do a podcast. I’m only 50 episodes in which is really like I’m still a baby in terms of the podcasting world but so many things I’ve learned along the way have been because of Mary’s guidance and just practicing and doing it and learning from it.
Beth 52:30
But every time I look at a transcript, I see things that I think I could do a little bit better but I try not to worry about it too much. Because yeah I’m unique and apparently people are still listening to this podcast [laughs] and you’re getting something out of it.
Beth 52:44
So the fact that I might say “you know” a lot or something else that I’m doing yet that you know that I do and I haven’t realized it yet I’m not worried about it too much. I just kind of try to keep coming back here and bringing interesting guests and interesting conversations and interesting ideas to you all as a community and that’s going to be a little bit imperfect from me along the way and I’m okay with that.
Beth 53:09
Mary has helped me do that and if you ever want to work with her she would help you do that as well.
Beth 53:16
The next episode of the podcast is a solo one with me. The topic of this one is called Keeping Burnout at Bay.
Beth 53:23
In this episode I share a little bit of the tough times of 2024 that I had, just working too much and getting a little bit too stressed. And in this episode I’m going to share some of the things that I’m doing to make sure I don’t get into burnout and I can still keep showing up for myself, my family, and my whole community.
Beth 53:43
So join me next time on the podcast for that one. Until then.
Beth 53:46
[Show outro] Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose. If you were inspired by something in this episode, please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them expand their facilitation practice too.
Beth 53:59
To find the show notes, give me feedback, or submit ideas for future episodes, visit facilitatingonpurpose.com. Special thanks to Mary Chan at Organized Sound Productions for producing this episode. Happy facilitating!
[Show outro] Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose. If you were inspired by something in this episode, please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them expand their facilitation practice to. To find the show notes, give me feedback, or submit ideas for future episodes visit FacilitatingOnPurpose.com. Special thanks to Mary Chan at Organized Sound Productions for producing this episode. Happy facilitating!