In this episode, host Beth Cougler Blom talks with facilitator and business owner Myriam Hadnes about making bold decisions in business, setting boundaries, and the power of saying no. Myriam shares her journey from academia to facilitation, the evolution of her NeverDoneBefore community, and why she ultimately chose to close it in favour of new opportunities.
Beth and Myriam also talk about:
- Recognizing when to pivot and let go of a project, even when it’s loved by a community
- How Myriam gamified the process of setting boundaries more consistently
- The importance of doing our own inner work as facilitators
Engage with Myriam Hadnes
- Website: https://workshops.work/
Links From the Episode
- Art of Hosting
- Myriam’s Boundary Tower for setting boundaries
- EP 51: Keeping Burnout at Bay with Beth Cougler Blom
- Simon Sinek
Connect with the Facilitating on Purpose Podcast
- Follow Facilitating on Purpose on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn or YouTube
- facilitatingonpurpose.com
Connect with Beth Cougler Blom
- Give feedback or suggest upcoming show topics or guests at hello@bcblearning.com
- Visit bcblearning.com to explore Beth’s company’s services in facilitation and learning design
- Purchase a copy of Beth’s book, Design to Engage
- Follow Beth on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn
Podcast production services by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
Show Transcript
[Upbeat music playing]
[Show intro]
Beth 00:02
Welcome to Facilitating on Purpose, where we explore ideas together about designing and facilitating learning. Join me to get inspired on your journey to becoming and being a great facilitator wherever you work. I’m your host Beth Cougler Blom.
[Episode intro]
Beth 00:21
Hi, welcome to the podcast. This is Beth, your host, and I’m so glad you’ve joined me for another episode. I’m really excited to present this one to you because I was listening to it again just to be able to record this intro. And to me it really felt like this person and I were sitting in a quiet space, were getting down to real talk about what’s happening in her business and some of the decisions that she’s made and the boundaries that she has set for herself. And I shared a little bit as well.
Beth 00:58
I’m so pleased to be able to present to you Dr. Myriam Hadnes. Some of you may know her from the workshops.work podcast, which for the last two years—I’m so happy to share—has shown up first on the State of Facilitation report. You maybe heard me talk about last year that my podcast was number five. Well, Myriam was number one! [laughs] And she was number one again this year. And I’ve seen her work through the NeverDoneBefore global community. You’re going to hear us talk about that and why it’s no longer around on our episode. But I’m so happy to present this conversation that I’ve had with Myriam to you. For this episode in particular, I really encourage you to listen right to the end of the episode because as we get towards the close of our conversation, the last maybe 10 minutes or so, Myriam shares a lot about boundary setting and actually shares a tool that she created and used that was really successful for her in setting the boundaries that she needed to set in her work.
So you’re going to find a lot of value in that particular piece for sure, but of course the whole conversation. Here she is Dr. Myriam Hadnes. So happy to have her on the podcast. Enjoy the show.
Beth 02:19
Myriam, it’s nice to see you. I’m so thrilled to have you on the podcast. Welcome.
Myriam 02:23
Thank you for inviting me Beth. I’m looking forward.
Beth 02:26
I’m wondering how you feel about being on the other side of a podcast interview because you’re such a seasoned podcast host. But you must be on other podcasts as well. Is it weird to be in the interviewee seat this time? [smiles]
Myriam 02:40
I must say that it feels good to be hosted and guided. It’s like being in someone else’s workshop and the beauty and the luxury of being facilitated. It’s nice. [Beth: Yeah.] So thank you for doing this.
Beth 02:54
Yeah, I’m thrilled. I mean, it feels like I’ve got star quality in the room or something like that, right, as sometimes we feel with each other when we know each other from afar, but we haven’t met in person and we’re in two different countries. And just somehow you’ve come across my whole awareness and purview around these wonderful things that you’ve been doing in the world for some time now. I think I’ve been following your work for at least a couple of years. So I’d like to have you introduce yourself a little bit to people who might not know you yet. I mean, there will be lots of people who do. What’s the short story, Myriam, of who you are and what you do? How would you describe yourself and your work these days?
Myriam 03:35
I think, in short, I’ve been a recovering academic for the longest time. I did a PhD in behavioural economics, worked in Vietnam for three years, then went to higher education strategy and worked in Luxembourg. At some point realized that I needed a change, that’s a longer story.
Myriam 03:53
But got in touch with what happens to an organization when you induce creativity, a bit of self-organization, and this workshop spirit. And what happens to an organization if you are taking this away. This really triggered my curiosity and interest in organizational development. Tried to find a job there, realized that I was unemployable [chuckles] because of my background as an academic.
Myriam 04:22
So I started my own venture eventually, started calling myself facilitator and realized that it was quite difficult for many people, especially in the non-English speaking world, to understand what facilitation is. When I pitched myself, I’m a facilitator, the question was, oh, are you a coach? Are you a consultant? Are you a mentor? What are you? I’m facilitating workshops. Then there was always this, huh, workshops? Are people still doing that? What a waste of time. Which led me to start a podcast, workshops.work, as kind of marketing tool to promote the role of a facilitator in the tool of a workshop. And that was 305 weeks ago.
Beth 05:12
I saw on your website that you’ve got some wonderful stats there of how long you’ve been producing that podcast and hosting it. It’s pretty impressive because it’s been weekly for 305 weeks. Is that what you said?
Myriam 05:24
Yeah, I haven’t missed a week. After 25 weeks I took a break and I thought this would be a thing that I could do. And I regretted it immediately because I realized that podcast listeners, usually they’re very loyal to a show, so they would listen to it every week. And if you don’t show up for a few weeks they find another podcast to follow.
And from there through the podcast I built such a broad network of facilitators so when the pandemic hit and I lost my facilitation clients, mostly corporates, I started NeverDoneBefore which was initially an event, an online event/facilitation conference. It turned into a community. Now I closed the community and I’ve really focused on agency work. So we provide corporate training. I call it a Trojan horse of corporate training where large corporates might think they’re buying training but what they actually get is a more collaborative culture because we use facilitation techniques to train on topics like communication, psychological safety, feedback culture, facilitation skills. And the niche is based on the network that I’ve created, that we can deliver these trainings in up to 15 different languages. So yeah that’s what I’m doing now.
Beth 06:47
I like that you said it’s kind of a Trojan horse approach. [smiling] Sometimes I think of that as a sneak attack. You know, that there’s something that maybe the client wouldn’t buy into right off the bat, but we know that they need it perhaps. Anyway, it feels like almost a whole other conversation, but I love that kind of word that you use there to describe what you did, what you do.
Myriam 07:09
Thank you.
Beth 07:10
Now, how many years has it been for you in business? I’m just thinking, because we’re going to get into some of the behind the scenes stuff about you running your business and the decisions that you’ve made kind of in the back end almost about what you’re doing and what you’re not doing. How long have you been in business now?
Myriam 07:29
I started slowly. In 2018 I became a freelancer and was experimenting with what I called idea parties and then masterminds and hosted my first workshops for clients. And then in 2019 I started a limited company so I made the switch from being a freelancer to having a company. That’s why I became “professional”. [they laugh]
Beth 08:02
That’s a whole other conversation too, isn’t it? That word. [Myriam: Yes.]
Beth 08:05
Now, it sounds like even from starting the idea parties and so on, maybe you’ve made shifts in what you do in your business, even over the last six or seven years now. Can you talk about some of those shifts? Like, are you doing now exactly what you did when you started or have you shifted and morphed and changed along the way? And what does that look like?
Myriam 08:28
Thank you for asking that. I think the most interesting part was that nothing of what I’m doing now was planned. In hindsight, the good choice was to always follow the calling. So basically, the marke, not trying to be stubborn. I was so stubborn when I started. I thought, I want to do masterminds. And my company initially was called, or my freelance company, was called IDays, idea days. Because I thought, I will provide idea days where people come and can brainstorm and find solutions. It took me one and a half years to realize, OK, IDays is not a company name that resonates with people. And companies don’t want idea days.
And in order to attract people to sign up for mastermind, you actually already need a kind of trusting relationship. Because it’s a lot of money, it’s time.
Myriam 09:26
So through the idea parties, more and more people reached out to me and asked me for advice in workshop design. Because I designed the idea parties in a way that were very workshoppy. And back then, I haven’t taken any facilitation course or anything. All I applied was basically my knowledge that I had from my background in behavioural economics. So how did I design experiments to do research to measure human behaviour and team dynamics? Basically, it also applies to workshops.
So I used that in order to design these activities. And people became curious and then asked me to design workshops, to facilitate workshops. So the podcast then, I got to reach two larger companies who would reach out. So then I was totally in workshop facilitation, process facilitation for large companies.
And then the pandemic hit. So I think this was the first time where I really had to make or to pivot. Because from one day to another, basically, our clients said, OK, we don’t need workshops anymore. And nobody back then could imagine that we could do it online. That was very scary.
Beth 10:41
I bet, for so many people, right, that you’re not alone in that feeling.
Myriam 10:45
So I did have a bigger than a side gig, so I must say that I was also lucky that one of my first clients was someone I met through my previous job as a strategic advisor. And they asked me to set up a summer school. So I designed a summer school for the European investment bank which was also facilitator work but in a very different context. So I developed the curriculum and the entire program and this luckily we could create a small online version of that so that I could have some income during the pandemic.
So to keep me alive but a big chunk was just taken away. So I remember waking up in the morning and just repeating the mantra, Myriam pretend as if you won a lottery. What would you do if you won the lottery? So I called up my podcast guests and asked them whether they would be interested in joining me on the venture that I called NeverDoneBefore, an online conference, a facilitation conference where the facilitators would present a workshop in any shape or form that they’ve never done before. [chuckles] I think the impression that I’m blabbering, I’m getting into so many details.
Beth 12:04
No, it’s, well, let me jump in for a second. So you mentioned the word calling before, which I thought was interesting because my first thought is, oh, that’s something that comes from inside us, the calling to be a facilitator. But the way you couched it was you were almost being called to the work by other people who were saying, oh, can you do this? Can you do that? Like you were asked and you listened and then you were able to provide these things, these workshops or whatever.
But it felt like when you started NeverDoneBefore, that was the calling from inside almost. Like you had that idea and you went out and asked the podcast guests to join you in it. Like was, am I making up this shift that happened? Like it’s an interesting thing to think about calling from inside and calling from outside to do some aspects of our work.
Myriam 12:52
This is very interesting. Thank you for pointing that out. I’ve never looked at it like that.
Beth 12:56
Yeah, does it resonate?
Myriam 12:57
And funny enough, so when I was doing my day job, I did Simon Sinek’s Why Academy, and my why that came out back then was to bring people together so that new ways of being and doing can emerge. And that was in 2016, and I didn’t even know what facilitation was.
Beth 13:17
Wow, and I would say that’s what NeverDoneBefore was, right? Because, I should say, I went to it once. I stayed up for that 24-hour period, like maybe you’ll have to tell people exactly kind of how you ran it. But yeah, that’s so interesting. So you really called that into being way earlier than you actually started that community?
Myriam 13:36
Yeah, yeah. And then it was indeed the NDB was something, it was a calling that was my curiosity that I brought to life. So we did this first conference, 24 hours event, it was totally crazy, everything that could go wrong did go wrong. But it was the pandemic, so we kind of were used to do things for the first time. And we were used to, I think everyone was a little bit more patient with tech issues back then. [chuckles]
And then when the festival was over, I was back to square one. So now what am I doing? I don’t have a business anymore. And this was then the calling from outside, that the festival guests reached out and said, Myriam, we need to continue this. You cannot just disappear. We got used to, because we continued after the festival, we had a so-called, we called it an aftermath. [They laugh.] Because so much, so many things went wrong. So we said, OK, let’s repeat a few of the workshops as an advent calendar. So many of the festival guests then met daily until Christmas. And when it was over, they wanted to continue. So I didn’t want to start a community back then because of commitment issues. [chuckles] Then said, OK, so let’s already plan the next festival next year. I start selling tickets and whatever happens between now and the festival is part of it. So this was the first attempt or the first step to build a community. Although I never planned to build one, but the demand was there.
Beth 15:05
They asked for it. Yeah. So you were saying yes to that, that ask from those people who, I mean, even though you had the tech issues, and so on, they were saying something that they wanted more, they liked it, they were craving something different, I suppose, right? [Myriam: Yeah.] Because actually, even the name, when I heard the name of NeverDoneBefore, I thought, Ooh, what’s that? You know, I think I have to be there. Because so many of us are searching for creativity, for seeing something that we’ve never seen before, bringing that fresh something to our groups. I mean, even the name was brilliant when you started. [chuckles]
Myriam 15:42
Yeah, it was just an initiative, it was just a working title and then I never changed it.
Beth 15:48
Yeah. Were there things that you knew you didn’t want to do?
Like, so you said yes to some pieces of that. Were there pieces where you thought, no, I’m never going to do this with NeverDoneBefore, never going to do this with my, with my business? Were you clear about some pieces?
Myriam 16:03
I don’t think so. So initially, I was very clear that I never wanted to start a community, [Beth laughs] and still I did. [Beth: And then…yeah.]
At some point, at the beginning, I was very clear that I never wanted to do something on site. And then I experimented a little bit with on site events. And now I’m back to online as my world.
Beth 16:24
Well, you travel a lot, it sounds like, and so there’s opportunities there for you to remain online for most of your work?
Myriam 16:44
Yeah, exactly. I do enjoy the flexibility it brings and if I need to be up at 3am, that’s also OK. And I think that’s something that I realized through NeverDoneBefore, because one of the cravings, I think, from the participants was also the authenticity. So it was through the name and the way we set it up, we gave everyone permission to just show up as the imperfect selves that they are. And I think this invitation to “unprofessionalism”, so can we just try something for the first time as experts in front of other experts and be okay with it? It creates this feeling of relief and community.
Beth 17:15
Yeah, I would say even as a participant, I did something I never did before because I rented a hotel room to go to the conference, right? Just something that’s 20 minutes away. Because of course I’m a mom, I’m a parent, I’m a wife, and so I had to kind of get away from my family. I knew they would bug me a little bit [laughs] while I was at the conference. And then I stayed up. Well, I think I slept, and then I would set alarms to get up for the next session. I think for my time in BC here, it ran from 6 p.m. to maybe 6 p.m. the next night, right? Like 24 hours. And so that was a never done before for me as a participant.
So you had it on both sides where you all were challenging both the facilitators and the participants.
Myriam 18:02
I love that. Also that you took the invitation to make it your own NeverDoneBefore and to create something for yourself that would be memorable.
Beth 18:10
Yeah, it was. Now, it ran successfully, but you’ve decided to close that community. What prompted that decision? And is it opening doors for you to something else?
Myriam 18:23
Yeah, so… there was a door already opening. So again, I was at the right time, at the right place where I created a community, I think at some point we had 40 different countries or nationalities in the community, so really global. I got a lead, a lead reached out that they needed workshops, training workshops in different time zones and in different languages.
And initially we spoke about, I think, English, German and maybe Mandarin, something like that. And when they realized that on top of that we can also provide with Thai and Korean and Japanese and Portuguese and Spanish and French and whatever language they wanted, they really jumped on this opportunity. So by accident, back then started an agency where I would subcontract the facilitators from the community to give the training workshops for the client.
Beth 19:19
All over the world.
Myriam 19:20
Yeah. So this started because of NDB and the network that I had. And suddenly I realized that the work I do or the effort, the love, the care that I put into NDB, yes, it leads to a self-sustaining business. So it did pay the bills, but it was in German would say it was too little to live and too much to die.
Beth 19:45
Hmm. Say more. Yeah. I haven’t heard that expression before.
Myriam 19:48
I could cover the costs with it, still I couldn’t really pay myself. So it was something like an expensive hobby.
Beth 19:56
Yes, [laughs] I’m sure we’ve all had some of those in our work.
Myriam 20:00
I realized that I could have changed the way I organized it, maybe professionalized it, again, this word, in order to make it more lucrative and to have more members. But I really saw the trade-off of how do I want to use my time and what is the broader impact that I want to bring to the world with my work?
And realizing that NDB is a beautiful space for 100 people and we are making great things. And it’s creative and nurturing. But if I really want to make an impact and if I really want to build a business that not only pays the bills but thrives, I actually have to rather focus on the agency work than on the community. And then decided that it’s better to close something while it’s still working and close on a high and keep this kind of warm memory than to slowly let it die.
Beth 21:00
[Laughs] Yeah, yeah. And it’s not easy for you or for the participants.
I mean, what did you tell yourself in those moments where you were making that decision? Did you have this fortitude that no, this is the best decision for me and this is why I’m going to do it and really just make it and run with it? Or did you wrestle with it for a while?
Myriam 21:24
If I’m very honest with myself, I think I wrestled with it for a year. So I realized now looking back is initially every year I had a new theme that was kind of growing inside of me and then coming to life. So the first year of NDB was the haute couture fashion show of facilitation. So where we show something that we would never buy in a shop or sell to customers, but still we experiment with the extravaganza.
The second year was the facilitators and digital residents theme. And the next year it was the greenhouse of facilitation. So how can we grow facilitators? And then the next year was the R&D department. And then I didn’t have the urge to change that. So we run a second year with the R&D department. And I think this was already a sign that, oh, something is missing here. Why don’t I have the urge to reinvent and to follow this trend of NeverDoneBefore?
Then I was really struggling with energy, dancing on the edge of burnout, not wanting to see it, not being able to really slow down because with a weekly podcast and a community of a hundred people plus agency work, plus some gigs here and there, there’s always something to do. It was one of my colleagues, masterminds, friends who then pointed it out. Do you really want to continue with NeverDoneBefore?
Beth 22:59
Was that a shock to you? I mean, do you think there were inklings there, but you didn’t really ask yourself that question yet?
Myriam 23:06
Yeah. I think I didn’t dare to to look then to imagine because it felt like it felt a little bit like I would let them down So building a family and then say, you know what? I’m leaving! [They laugh.]
Beth 23:15
Bye bye, yeah that’s tough.
Myriam 23:20
Yeah, and then I tried to find there were a few weeks where I thought oh maybe I just change it and maybe it becomes the community around the agency and then we have more focus or we are creating, we’re creating courses from within the community and then it’s a real R&D department.
Myriam 23:20
So I experimented a lot with different ways and at the end realized that no I just need to to be honest to myself and to the community. And then everything went very fast. So once I—that’s me. If I take a decision and it has to happen immediately. So I communicated it and we still had half a year, six months, to really help the members to find each other and something that they want to carry forward. Initially, I wanted to continue with the festival.
Oh, we have a yearly festival still and then closer to the event I realized that if I continue with the festival then from June, or even May, every year will start sorting the speakers, selling tickets…
Beth 24:27
Yeah, it’s not just that day or those two days or whatever it was. Yeah, it’s a lot.
Myriam 24:33
Exactly and you need to have the social media channels open.
So what we see, we see a yearly event, but everything that is behind it, all the copywriting, all the social media, the selling tickets, the dealing with tech issues because someone sold and didn’t receive the confirmation or someone wants to refund, that’s always something.
Beth 24:54
How do boundaries play into this? Because I know in my own business, almost everything I’ve ever had that’s been tricky has some sort of boundaries thing related to it. [Myriam: 100%.] Did you draw some boundaries for yourself somewhere? Did they come over time?
Myriam 25:12
I was talking with my partner a lot about that and we came to the conclusion that actually when we’re self-employed we always try to solve our own problem.
Beth 25:21
First? Yeah. [chuckles]
Myriam 25:22
We solve our own problem and we create a product around something or a service that hopefully will serve those kinds of problems.
For me this entire NeverDoneBefore journey was also a way for me to learn how to set boundaries.
Beth 25:38
How so?
Myriam 25:39
Yeah, I’m definitely a recovering people pleaser. Being there in service of others, making sure that they are always, they get what they need. I found myself replying to requests and emails in the middle of the night, first thing in the morning at 5am, working at weekends, constantly in service. And it didn’t even occur to me that I could either let it wait until Monday morning or say no.
Beth 26:07
Yeah. So many of us don’t have that conversation with ourselves, you know, because we’re people, people. People who become facilitators, we like people, we like serving people, we like helping them, don’t we? [Myriam: Yeah.] Do you think it’s a danger for a lot of us?
Myriam 26:21
Totally. And I think, as you say, I think many facilitators have this in them. We like to serve.
I wonder what did I avoid myself by serving others? So looking at the groups, taking care of the group, taking care of the community, what was it that I was avoiding in me or what kind of void was I filling through the community and through the work that I couldn’t fill in through other means? So I think last year I asked myself all these big questions, very painful questions. [chuckles]
Beth 26:54
Did you look outside yourself then you mentioned, you know, we always look to ourselves first and try to solve our own problems. Did you go to anyone or do anything to kind of look outside yourself to make those decisions?
Myriam 27:06
So, definitely, coaching was part of it, plant medicine was part of it.
Beth 27:11
Oh plant medicine? [Myriam: Yes.] Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about that.
Myriam 27:15
I did two retreats, working with the cactus and working with ayahuasca. It’s a plant from the Amazonas. It is, I wouldn’t call them drugs, it’s really a medicine.
I think that’s an entire different conversation, but what it helps is to really look at our internal systems and what’s holding us back and really seeing more clear on what’s going on and what we want. And letting go of the shoulds and the musts and the expectations. It’s like removing a layer of blur.
Beth 27:51
Yeah, that comes from outside, I suppose, to try to distract us or something, right? From what we really should be doing sometimes?
Myriam 27:59
Absolutely. [Beth: Yeah, yeah.] And then turning to two colleagues. So I had a phase where I would ask members of the community and trusted colleagues who have been on my journey with me and ask them, so what do you see that I don’t? Sometimes it was painful to, to listen to the answer and to actually see how I’m staying in my own way, how am I self-sabotaging.
And finally a meditation. So vipassana 10 days, silent, without writing, without reading, without speaking, is maybe the plant medicine is kind of a shortcut to the 10 days. [chuckles] So the outcome and the, the journey is very similar.
Beth 28:39
Wow, but what a gift, I mean, you were able to give yourself this time, these experiences to support you. Not everybody can take 10 days and go on a silent retreat, so there’s a wonderfulness there that you could carve it out, but wow, that’s a deep commitment, it sounds like, to that change.
Myriam 28:59
Yeah at the end of the day if we as facilitators, if we are committing to hold space for groups and individuals, we have to be able to hold the space for us first. And I think there’s so much projection going on, the triggers, the anger, the impatience. You name it, there is something that is unfulfilled inside ourselves and if we don’t face it and deal with it, we will project it on the group and we’ll do something with them that they did not sign up for.
Beth 29:30
There’s so many ways that I’m sure I don’t even know the half of it, but I just had this conversation this week, I think earlier this week, where I forget the term, somebody said it was that kind of we’ve got to serve ourself sort of idea that they were bringing forward. And I said, yes, in Art of Hosting, they call it hosting self. And I remember when I went to Art of Hosting and learned that term, I was like, oh, yes, right. Thank you for the reminder, Art of Hosting, hosting self. We can’t host others if we don’t host self. So there’s different ways that we can say this thing. We’ve got to keep saying it over and over, I think so some of us get the memo. I know I count myself in that for sure. [laughs]
Myriam 30:12
Yeah, oxygen mask first.
Beth 30:14
Yeah, I know, right. So cliché, but why do we not do it? [Myriam: Yeah.] Yeah. Now, let me go back to the boundaries things. What has setting boundaries and kind of protecting yourself or figuring out what it is that you need, what has that done for you? And it’s, you’re still in it, I think, maybe a year from now, two years from now, there’s more coming for you too, I’m sure. But what change is that making for you right now?
Myriam 30:41
So last year I started this gamification of a boundary tower. So how can I find joy in setting boundaries? I celebrated myself every time that I set a small boundary. And it started with a colleague and friend reaching out if I want to host an in-person workshop with her. And I didn’t want to. And because I knew that it’s not what I want to put my focus on, I don’t enjoy the process of selling tickets, and the on-site is not my world. So it was really difficult to say, actually, no, I don’t want that. Yes, I like you as a friend. Yes, I like you as a colleague, but I don’t want that. And then realizing that it’s okay, and I can do that.
And then seeking these opportunities to say no. And I think with you it’s the same. We host a podcast, so we seem very approachable to the outside world. I get so many emails and LinkedIn messages, oh, I hear your podcast, let’s have a chat, let’s meet to discuss facilitation. In the past it was always so difficult to explain, oh no, and maybe, and then suddenly all my calendar was full of all these exploration calls. But what would I get out of it? Speaking at an event, is it really my target audience? Is it really a topic that I want to speak about? These small things that actually then make a big difference. So it was, it felt a bit like training the muscle, building the muscle of saying no, and learning that it’s okay and I can survive.
Beth 32:19
Yes, definitely. Yeah. [smiling]
Myriam 32:20
And that was actually my partner who told me, from who went on that, stop giving explanations for your no, because the more you explain, the more they will find, oh right now I cannot have this coffee chat with you. Okay, can I call you next week? Can I call you next month? No, I don’t do coffee chats. Full stop.
Beth 32:41
It can take up your whole day, your whole week as you’ve said. You know, you showed me the boundary tower. You call it boundary tower? It’s a physical thing, isn’t it?
Myriam 32:49
Yes.
Beth 32:50
Can you just describe so people can kind of visualize it? Or maybe, I don’t know if you’ve ever shared a photo of it.
Myriam 32:55
I did. I did share a photo on LinkedIn when I completed it, so I graduated from my boundary tower.
Beth 33:01
Okay, maybe we’ll share a link in the show notes so people can take a look. Yeah, but just describe it a little bit more.
Myriam 33:08
So I drew a tower made out of layers or different levels and numbered the levels and then made kind of a staircase out of it and each time I set a boundary I coloured one level of the staircase in a different colour so I could really see the progress. And then had different levels where I would, in theory, [chuckles] celebrate myself with a massage or spa day so that I leveled up. And what was interesting was that the day I “graduated” from my boundary tower I had a very sudden and big conflict with a client coming up where I then said, no, this is not okay. I am not willing to work with you if we communicate in this way and I would have not been able to do that if I hadn’t trained this muscle of setting boundaries and taking care of myself. Realizing that this dynamic with a client was going into a space where it was not good for my mental health and that no money can compensate me for that.
Beth 34:24
No. Oh, wow. That’s so powerful. How many levels were on the boundary tower? Like, I’m wondering, people are going, well, how many levels does it take, Myriam, to get to that point, right?
Myriam 34:34
Something around between 30 and 40, maybe?
Beth 34:36
So do you feel that you’re at the spot now that you’ve graduated from that, that you can do it without that physical gamification piece? Is it internalized? Did you do that piece for yourself?
Myriam 34:49
I think it became much easier in the daily stuff. Want to have a coffee chat? No. [chuckles] Want to come over for dinner? No. [They laugh.]
Beth 34:59
Yeah, it’s the big…you’re right, that like the thing with the client is a bigger thing. That’s a deeper issue. Yeah, that’s hard.
Myriam 35:07
Exactly. Or family issues, friends, relationships. But then I did a recent workshop called On Radical Honesty, which is beautiful and so powerful, where it’s all about actually also being honest to ourselves and noticing the body sensations as we say or don’t say things and how we react to certain situations. And how can we notice the body sensations and then be honest to ourselves and to the other person, which is also a form of boundary.
Beth 35:42
It sure is. And it’s not easy for some of us. I know that somatic side has always been difficult for me. I’m so in my head, you know?
But that’s a visceral thing, isn’t it? It’s a body-related thing. It’s a practice to really notice. We’re good at noticing the groups. Actually, I think I, so you don’t know this. I’ll do a little quick aside. The episode right before this one, I did a solo episode on keeping burnout at bay. So this is just so apropos to come after it. But in there, I think I said, we’re so good at listening to what’s happening with the group. But what about listening to ourselves and what do we need and what’s going on with us physically sometimes too, right?
Myriam 36:27
Yeah, 100%. And our body knows if we just listen to it.
I’m reading a book on constellations, and I did this activity yesterday where on one sticky note you write, I should, and you put it on the floor. And on the other side of the room, you write another sticky note with, I yearn to, you put it on the floor. It’s a book from Judy Smith Wilkinson. And then you stand on the I should sticky note and just feel what happens to your body. And then you walk over to the I yearn and feel what happens to your body. And it’s, it’s magic. Your body knows it.
Beth 37:09
Wow. What are we yearning for? So we have to pay attention to our bodies more. What a great thing to realize and to work, you’re working on it.
Myriam 37:17
Yes, and it’s constant work. I think the embodiment work is a big field that now comes more into practice that we have neglected for a long time.
And one thing that I wanted to still say about the boundaries, because I think we spoke about business and I think that’s an important part. When I initially started my business, I mentioned that I was working for the European Investment Bank, building this summer school. The more I started working with NDB and found my calling there, I realized this disconnect. At some point I self-sabotaged to lose that client because I didn’t have the skills to actually sense into what I need to say no to set the boundary. There was another story around it where I lost the client because yeah, it was an inner no. So I said no to the client, became a boundary. And then I thought, I realized that I actually haven’t thought that through and didn’t know where the money would come from. So I was prepared, okay, this is going to be bankruptcy. And out of that came then the first agency client, the much larger contract and much more opportunities. For me, the necessity of boundaries or why it’s so beautiful is that we learn that with every no, every intentional no, there’s a bigger yes that will come after. And that’s something that I have to remind myself of. If I’m saying no to a client because it’s not aligned with my integrity, there will be a bigger yes around the corner.
Beth 38:57
Yeah, that’s beautiful. I think I’ve sat in those moments too where you just have to tell yourself that you got to trust, something else is coming my way. If it’s not this, I’m leaving that door open for something else.
And actually, I’ve experienced where I set a boundary and it could be just about, well, I remember once I set a boundary because I wasn’t getting paid on time. They’d been going on and on and on and not getting the money and so on. And finally, I said, I’m stopping work. I’m not doing this anymore. Oh, and didn’t they find a way to kind of get a partner involved and pay the bill right away? And so I have direct evidence when I set boundaries, small or large, the universe somehow finds a way. The client will say, oh, okay, no problem. And we thought it was such a big problem to say something about it.
Myriam 39:53
Yes. And this reminds me of a, it was also last year, my boundary year, where I delete big contract, beautiful, perfectly aligned with what I do. And we had back and forth about the rates. I made concessions, I reduced the rates. And at some point, I’m like, no, that’s enough.
So I told them, okay, I noticed that we’re going into this back and forth. If you’re looking for the cheapest option, I might not be the right person for you. The right service for you. [Beth: Yeah, hear hear.] And similar to what you experienced. Next step, okay, we send the contract over.
Beth 40:31
Yeah, we’ll find the money. [laughs] Yep. It’s good evidence, isn’t it?
And just keep telling ourselves that is the right decision—because we feel so bad about it, don’t we, to kind of stand our ground, but it usually does work in our favour. And if it doesn’t, I think, well, they’re probably not meant to be my client anyway. [Myriam: Yeah.] They can just go work with someone else and then I’ll be okay. [laughs]
Myriam 40:54
And I think the worst thing is to start resenting our clients because they didn’t pay us what we believe we’re worth. And I think that’s even worse than losing the client because they didn’t have the budget.
Beth 41:07
That’s right. It’s our fault really. Well, probably in the beginning it was our fault because we didn’t do something. You’re right. So we can’t blame our clients for something that we didn’t do in the beginning.
I’ve had that recently actually. And I apologized to a client recently saying, I’m sorry we’re in this state. It’s not a major thing. So that’s a good thing. But I didn’t do X at the beginning. And so here we are. And so here’s how I’m going to make it right kind of thing. So set the boundary early.
Myriam 41:36
Yeah, and good on you to then be clear on the communication and the follow-up? I think that’s the most essential way to be transparent and to own what’s happening.
Beth 41:45
Let’s kind of end on this note around the inner piece. I mean, all throughout this conversation, I’ve heard you saying and evidencing ways you’ve done the work, right?
You’ve done this inner work to be able to be who you are in your business. Why has it been so important for you to do that inner work on yourself to get what you want?
Myriam 42:07
I try to remember where and when it started and I think it was during my time in Vietnam where I came across a friend-mentor-partner who introduced me to mindfulness and meditation. And then realizing that there was so much going on inside of me that I was totally ignorant because it was constantly running. Constantly running on a mission, get stuff done, very determined and not noticing a lot of things that would go on. And then always dancing on the edge of burnout, always being a little bit too much for myself and everyone around and I think realizing that I cannot continue like that. So noticing that I was lonely, miserable, without a real evidence for it.
So I said okay so there is no reason why I wouldn’t be happy and fulfilled and balanced and calm with a partner. Why is everything so difficult? This led me on the trajectory and then led by curiosity of there’s so much to explore and there’s life and community and partnership can be just so much more beautiful if we are more gentle to ourselves. The more we accept ourselves, the more we accept others. And I recently read this beautiful piece, we can only forgive our parents for all the mistakes they made if we come to the conclusion that we are okay and we are lovable. Because then the outcome was actually they did the best they could and the outcome was okay. So I think to find this inner peace would just make everything so much easier.
Beth 43:48
Myriam, thank you so much for sharing so much of your story. I mean, I know it’s just a small part of your whole life and existence, but it’s really helpful to have people such as yourself that, I know, people around the world look up to you because of what you have done and the communities you’ve led. And it’s so important for us to share this kind of back end behind the scenes, feelings-based stuff with each other. So thanks for being so honest and sharing that with us. Appreciate it.
Myriam 44:22
Thank you for for these beautiful questions. I did not see it coming that would go so deep. Very nice.
[Episode outro]
Beth 44:31
It was wonderful to have this conversation with Myriam and I so appreciated just how honest she was and straightforward about some of the things that she shared about her business. The tough decision making that she had to do, the trial and error pieces that she was working out. And to make a decision to close down something like the NeverDoneBefore community, even though it was something that people really loved, that takes some guts, doesn’t it? It’s not that we are just in it to do these things for our communities of practice or communities that show up to participate in our events when we create and lead these things. We still have to run businesses and I so applaud Myriam for making the decision that if it’s not serving her financially then she needs to move on and do something else. And I expect future wonderful things from her and I will be interested to see what happens with her next. Even what she shared with us about what she’s currently doing to globalize her business is really fascinating to see and hear a little bit about.
One of the phrases that she said that really stood out for me when I listened back to the conversation was that she said we have to stop giving explanations for our no. And I know as a woman, maybe just as a human, I’ve struggled with this sometimes because I want to be helpful, I want to be nice, I want to do things for people. We talked about that, how maybe we come to the work of being in the learning field or being facilitators because we like to work with people and we like to [chuckles] say yes to people and help them out. But when she gave us permission to say, you can say no and you don’t have to give an explanation for your no. I hope you appreciated that message from her as well and so many of the other things that she shared. As you go through the rest of your day today, maybe you can think to yourself are there things that you need to let go of in your life or in your work and what are you going to say yes to? Maybe something that you haven’t said yes to before. I hope you take that inspiration from Myriam through the rest of your day and beyond.
Coming up on the podcast, I interview Theresa Southam. Theresa has written a book called Transforming Trauma Through Social Change, A Guide for Educators. I’m going to ask Theresa some of the things that we should know about trauma that might be present in the lives of our students or our participants and how we can continue to support them and drive towards their success in our training rooms or our classrooms or wherever we are working with the people that we support. Join Theresa Southam and I next time on the podcast. Until then.
[Show outro]
Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose. If you were inspired by something in this episode please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them expand their facilitation practice too. To find the show notes, give me feedback, or submit ideas for future episodes visit facilitatingonpurpose.com. Special thanks to Mary Chan at Organized Sound Productions for producing this episode. Happy Facilitating!
